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> It doesn't get charged often because there are parties that fight tooth and nail to prevent the implementation of processes You're literally fabricating that

by ch4s3 9y ago

> It doesn't get charged often because there are parties that fight tooth and nail to prevent the implementation of processes You're literally fabricating that. Bluntly,you made this up unless you can provide proof to the contrary. There have been numerous studies that have shown that in person voter fraud is basically non-existent in the US. Think about the motivation for a moment. Committing this crime has negligible and highly uncertain payoff. The odds that your 1 or few fraudulent votes could tip an election turn on you being able to cast those vostes in precincts that have less than a 1% margin between candidates. If you could even correctly identify those places, you'd still have to go and wait in line in those places, which could take all day. You could be challenged and caught in any one of those locations, and face jail time if you're caught. Even if you accomplish your goal you've still only mustered a handful of votes which likely aren't enough. If you wanted your crime to have any chance of paying off you'd need to conspire with other voters to commit similar fraud, and then you exposure to legal peril is exponentially increased. So you'd have to have some sort of leverage to get these conspirators to actually cooperate and not flip if caught. This would likely be money, and a lot of it. With that kind of cash, why not just run attack ads and bus like minded folks to the polls, both of which are legal and more effective. Now, if you could get a hold of a few hundred absentee ballots, from say a nursing home... then you might be able to commit a crime that has the intended outcome. Which is interesting, because this is a crime that actually happens, unlike in person voter fraud which is again, non-existent in the US.

wang_li 9y ago
That's not the only form of vote fraud. Non-citizens voting is illegal and happens[1]. Does it happen in massive numbers? No idea, probably not. To what extent, though, does it compare to eligible voters who don't have ID, which is a common complaint about voter ID laws, which are struck down in the courts all the time. 1: https://www.justice.gov/file/3835pdf/download https://www.justice.gov/file/3835pdf/download
- ch4s3 9y ago
  Non-citizens voting is still in person voter fraud. I'm sure it has happened, but it is vanishingly rare, you citation is about 1 person. There is simply no incentive to commit that crime. Even less so if you're a non-citizen, because if you're caught you'll be deported. Very few people commit crimes where they have nothing to gain, a lot to lose, and a high chance of being caught. It is almost a non-issue. There is literally no evidence that in person voter fraud poses a threat to the integrity of US elections either local or national. It is a red herring.
  - wang_li 9y ago
    >I'm sure it has happened, but it is vanishingly rare, you citation is about 1 person. Yes. I found a single link to to illustrate that it does happen, not to quantify how much it happens. Several people have replied saying that it doesn't happen at all. When I link to sources showing it does they switch to saying it doesn't happen enough to matter. Well, a group in Virginia found that 1852 ballots cast by non-citizen voters between 2011 and 2017. Does that matter? Maybe, maybe not. But it's on the same scale as people who would be inconvenienced to have to procure an ID to satisfy voter ID requirements. Two different surveys have found that ~13% of illegal immigrants from Mexico have registered to vote. Given the impact doing so will have on having their immigration status normalized it doesn't make sense that they would register, but by their own admission they have. Rational or not, it happens. It seems in every election cycle in King County, Washington people mail in ballots of recently deceased relatives. Again, it makes no sense because it's a deeply blue county and one extra ballot isn't going to swing the election. But they do it. >There is literally no evidence that in person voter fraud poses a threat to the integrity of US elections either local or national. It is a red herring. By definition even a single ineligible voter destroys the integrity of an election.
    - ch4s3 9y ago
      > Yes. I found a single link to to illustrate that it does happen A single instance is an anecdote, not data. You should not make policy by anecdote. >Two different surveys have found that ~13% of illegal immigrants from Mexico have registered to vote. Which surveys? By whom? I've never heard that before, and I follow the issue. I'm tempted to call this an outright lie. > It seems in every election cycle in King County, Washington people mail in ballots of recently deceased relatives. Again, that's not in person voter fraud, which doesn't exit as a real problem. That's mail in ballot fraud, which none of the voter suppression laws and purges target. I previously said twice, mail in ballot fraud is the only way voter fraud practically ever happens in the US. You are willfully trying to obscure that fact. > By definition even a single ineligible voter destroys the integrity of an election. No it doesn't. The margin of error on counting votes is at a state wide level is often measured in 1000s of votes. A single fraudulent vote is noise statistically. You are lying and pandering to fear to support draconian and ridiculous voter roll purges. You are presenting weak arguments and no real evidence. You are trading in anecdote and fear.

by ch4s3 9y ago

wang_li 9y ago

That's not the only form of vote fraud. Non-citizens voting is illegal and happens[1]. Does it happen in massive numbers? No idea, probably not. To what extent, though, does it compare to eligible voters who don't have ID, which is a common complaint about voter ID laws, which are struck down in the courts all the time. 1: https://www.justice.gov/file/3835pdf/download https://www.justice.gov/file/3835pdf/download

ch4s3 9y ago
Non-citizens voting is still in person voter fraud. I'm sure it has happened, but it is vanishingly rare, you citation is about 1 person. There is simply no incentive to commit that crime. Even less so if you're a non-citizen, because if you're caught you'll be deported. Very few people commit crimes where they have nothing to gain, a lot to lose, and a high chance of being caught. It is almost a non-issue. There is literally no evidence that in person voter fraud poses a threat to the integrity of US elections either local or national. It is a red herring.
- wang_li 9y ago
  >I'm sure it has happened, but it is vanishingly rare, you citation is about 1 person. Yes. I found a single link to to illustrate that it does happen, not to quantify how much it happens. Several people have replied saying that it doesn't happen at all. When I link to sources showing it does they switch to saying it doesn't happen enough to matter. Well, a group in Virginia found that 1852 ballots cast by non-citizen voters between 2011 and 2017. Does that matter? Maybe, maybe not. But it's on the same scale as people who would be inconvenienced to have to procure an ID to satisfy voter ID requirements. Two different surveys have found that ~13% of illegal immigrants from Mexico have registered to vote. Given the impact doing so will have on having their immigration status normalized it doesn't make sense that they would register, but by their own admission they have. Rational or not, it happens. It seems in every election cycle in King County, Washington people mail in ballots of recently deceased relatives. Again, it makes no sense because it's a deeply blue county and one extra ballot isn't going to swing the election. But they do it. >There is literally no evidence that in person voter fraud poses a threat to the integrity of US elections either local or national. It is a red herring. By definition even a single ineligible voter destroys the integrity of an election.
  - ch4s3 9y ago
    > Yes. I found a single link to to illustrate that it does happen A single instance is an anecdote, not data. You should not make policy by anecdote. >Two different surveys have found that ~13% of illegal immigrants from Mexico have registered to vote. Which surveys? By whom? I've never heard that before, and I follow the issue. I'm tempted to call this an outright lie. > It seems in every election cycle in King County, Washington people mail in ballots of recently deceased relatives. Again, that's not in person voter fraud, which doesn't exit as a real problem. That's mail in ballot fraud, which none of the voter suppression laws and purges target. I previously said twice, mail in ballot fraud is the only way voter fraud practically ever happens in the US. You are willfully trying to obscure that fact. > By definition even a single ineligible voter destroys the integrity of an election. No it doesn't. The margin of error on counting votes is at a state wide level is often measured in 1000s of votes. A single fraudulent vote is noise statistically. You are lying and pandering to fear to support draconian and ridiculous voter roll purges. You are presenting weak arguments and no real evidence. You are trading in anecdote and fear.