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Are you saying, "prove it has happened" or "prove it is a risk"? I doubt it's happened yet, but I think the risk is getting worse every year (technology enable

Are you saying, "prove it has happened" or "prove it is a risk"? I doubt it's happened yet, but I think the risk is getting worse every year (technology enables this, like when personal identifying information on large numbers of American voters leak from large companies...)

ramy_d 9y ago
you are spreading FUD which is detracting from a more immediate (and actual) issue
- travmatt 9y ago
  That’s a feature, not a bug.
  - danblick 9y ago
    That's not really fair. I care about making sure people are able to vote, too. I expressed a concern about election security because I think it's an issue people should give more thought. It's not fair to suggest that means I don't care about the same things you do too.
    - s73ver_ 9y ago
      Except these red herring concerns are the exact same fake concerns that those who are interested in suppressing voters come out with.
vkou 9y ago
How exactly will you use this PII to perpetuate voter fraud? Show up at a polling station with fake ID or PII? Then at another polling station with another piece of fake ID or PII? What's your plan for voting staff checking the records, and finding out that 'you' already cast a ballot at that station? This kind of fraud is incredibly risky, and does not scale (And is trivial to combat). Election fraud by the process of disenfranchising voters (or rigging electronic voting machines,) on the other hand, scales incredibly well. The former is not happening, and would be incredibly difficult to pull off, at great risk to the perpetrators. The latter is happening, and is comparatively trivial to pull off (And nobody goes to jail, when they get caught.) Voter fraud is a red herring.
- Amezarak 9y ago
  Not all states require an ID to vote. Voter ID laws are a controversial measure. Generally, you register to vote. As long as you input plausible information and a real address you can receive mail at, you are likely to get on the rolls. Once you get on the rolls, you just show up at the polling station and tell them who you are (no ID required), they look for the name in the book, mark you as having voted, and you go vote. Several years ago they did pass a law federally requiring an ID if you couldn't provide the last-four of an SSN or a driver's license, though, if you're a new voter. Not sure how that works if e.g., you're Amish and don't have an SSN or driver's license.
  - s73ver_ 9y ago
    And how are you going to do this on a large scale? Especially without being caught?
    - Amezarak 9y ago
      How would you detect this kind of fraud? Historically, whenever states go about trying to verify their voter registration databases, they end up wiping out swaths of real, actual voters for various reasons, which usually makes it a non-starter. I doubt it's very common in a fraud sense (though there are probably a lot of people who aren't supposed to be able to vote who end up voting), but either way, it's a difficult problem, probably impossible, to solve without impinging on the rights of the voting public. Voter ID laws disenfranchise people, sharing too much data with the feds has privacy risks, cleaning up the rolls inevitably affects legitimate voters...there's no good way to solve the problem.
      - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
        > How would you detect this kind of fraud? Voter rolls are public. You can't see how someone voted, but you can see if they voted.
        Amezarak 9y ago
s73ver_ 9y ago
Both. There has been absolutely no evidence that it is any kind of a risk. Despite all of that information being out there, you still need actual people to go in and do the voting, and in large numbers at that. The amounts of money, and the amounts of people who all have to keep quiet is mindblowing.

ramy_d 9y ago

you are spreading FUD which is detracting from a more immediate (and actual) issue

travmatt 9y ago
That’s a feature, not a bug.
- danblick 9y ago
  That's not really fair. I care about making sure people are able to vote, too. I expressed a concern about election security because I think it's an issue people should give more thought. It's not fair to suggest that means I don't care about the same things you do too.
  - s73ver_ 9y ago
    Except these red herring concerns are the exact same fake concerns that those who are interested in suppressing voters come out with.

vkou 9y ago

How exactly will you use this PII to perpetuate voter fraud? Show up at a polling station with fake ID or PII? Then at another polling station with another piece of fake ID or PII? What's your plan for voting staff checking the records, and finding out that 'you' already cast a ballot at that station? This kind of fraud is incredibly risky, and does not scale (And is trivial to combat). Election fraud by the process of disenfranchising voters (or rigging electronic voting machines,) on the other hand, scales incredibly well. The former is not happening, and would be incredibly difficult to pull off, at great risk to the perpetrators. The latter is happening, and is comparatively trivial to pull off (And nobody goes to jail, when they get caught.) Voter fraud is a red herring.

Amezarak 9y ago
Not all states require an ID to vote. Voter ID laws are a controversial measure. Generally, you register to vote. As long as you input plausible information and a real address you can receive mail at, you are likely to get on the rolls. Once you get on the rolls, you just show up at the polling station and tell them who you are (no ID required), they look for the name in the book, mark you as having voted, and you go vote. Several years ago they did pass a law federally requiring an ID if you couldn't provide the last-four of an SSN or a driver's license, though, if you're a new voter. Not sure how that works if e.g., you're Amish and don't have an SSN or driver's license.
- s73ver_ 9y ago
  And how are you going to do this on a large scale? Especially without being caught?
  - Amezarak 9y ago
    How would you detect this kind of fraud? Historically, whenever states go about trying to verify their voter registration databases, they end up wiping out swaths of real, actual voters for various reasons, which usually makes it a non-starter. I doubt it's very common in a fraud sense (though there are probably a lot of people who aren't supposed to be able to vote who end up voting), but either way, it's a difficult problem, probably impossible, to solve without impinging on the rights of the voting public. Voter ID laws disenfranchise people, sharing too much data with the feds has privacy risks, cleaning up the rolls inevitably affects legitimate voters...there's no good way to solve the problem.
    - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
      > How would you detect this kind of fraud? Voter rolls are public. You can't see how someone voted, but you can see if they voted.
      - Amezarak 9y ago

s73ver_ 9y ago

Both. There has been absolutely no evidence that it is any kind of a risk. Despite all of that information being out there, you still need actual people to go in and do the voting, and in large numbers at that. The amounts of money, and the amounts of people who all have to keep quiet is mindblowing.