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> I'm not impressed, the bar has been raised for claims of harassment and victimization This attitude really frustrates me. This isn't a court of law, the man

> I'm not impressed, the bar has been raised for claims of harassment and victimization This attitude really frustrates me. This isn't a court of law, the man in question isn't accused of a crime, and his name is even withheld so his reputation is not at stake. She is under no obligation to turn over evidence for the public to sift through. And just because she doesn't have some smoking-gun "I'll kill you!" email doesn't mean there wasn't harassment going on. He refused to take "no" for an answer, and she says she felt unsafe being in the same room as him. She's not doing this as revenge against him, or she would have given his name. She's not doing this because she's bitter about losing the competition because she won. Why can't we, even for a moment, believe this woman when she says "I don't feel safe" ? > If you had spent your whole weekend working around the clock on a project that won the prize on your own code, only to be told your dreams were now crushed because you "weren't a good fit", you'd probably be begging to find a way to hold onto the tickets or the project as well From the Techstars FAQ: "Whether or not you continue to work on the idea with some or all of your team is completely up to you. Approximately 25% of Techstars Startup Weekend participants continue working on their idea with all of their team". What she did wasn't unusual, in fact it's what the majority of participants do.

jaxmurr 9y ago
> She's not doing this as revenge against him, or she would have given his name. She's not doing this because she's bitter about losing the competition because she won. Why can't we, even for a moment, believe this woman when she says "I don't feel safe" ? If she felt unsafe why didn't she just get a restraining order? Unless, of course, there wasn't adequate evidence to get one in the first place.
- openasocket 9y ago
  That's not how restraining orders work, it generally applies to things like direct death threats or physical altercations. They also take a long time to put in place and is a pretty extreme step to take. Instead she fired him from her startup, is that so unreasonable?
  - jaxmurr 9y ago
    > That's not how restraining orders work, it generally applies to things like direct death threats or physical altercations. So, actual harassment? > Instead she fired him from her startup, is that so unreasonable? I think this is where the mentor talked about "karma biting back." She had these facts beforehand: 1) Mark is socially-inept and an asshole 2) Mark invested time and energy into the project 3) there were no legal contracts Is "firing" Mark (with no "smoking gun" event/email) and expecting him to bend over so reasonable? This really seems like IP theft with the OP hiding behind "harassment."
    - Khol 9y ago
      There are many things which aren't death threats or physical altercations which are harassment. I would certainly feel uncomfortable receiving those messages in the situation as described in the article.
    - cannonedhamster 9y ago
      Mark volunteered time into a project. Let's frame this as an open source project where you can also volunteer. * Person X is in charge of a group and has an idea for a coding project * Person Y decides to volunteer some coding time * Person X, with full authority to do so ends, the purely voluntary relationship * Person Y now decides that they are a co-founder and has equal rights and starts demanding compensation for the project that doesn't exist but could potentially exist in the future. They also continue to fire off emails becoming more demanding after it's made clear that the relationship has been terminated. Were this an open source project people would think what the contributor is doing is insane. That's clearly harassment. If I fire someone on a Friday and they show up on a Monday saying that they have a right to the company's future earnings and oh, by the way, do you want this t-shirt I made about the company, I'm going to call the police.
      - openmosix 9y ago
        When joining an opensource project, there is a license and you - as contributor - are transferring the IP ownership from you to the project through the license agreement. Following that, you can kick off anyone at any time from a project. However, that someone can fork the project and continue on his own. Even in for-profit projects, this happen: see the Arduino's drama as an example. If you and I have started a project together, and I haven't signed an IP ownership transfer (to you, the project, the company) - I am entitled to the full ownership of the intellectual rights of my work. Regardless if I get paid or not (even when I get paid, every company will ask you to sign a separate agreement where you transfer ownership of produced IP). So if I get "fired" - and I haven't signed any agreement - you are in trouble. Because from now on, /your/ project IP will always have the legal liability that at some point I can come back and claim it's mine. See Facebook and many other cases, where they worked on a project without clear initial paperwork - it's a very expensive mistake.
program_whiz 9y ago
Here's my take. You can say you "feel" a certain way under any circumstance, heck I could say your comment feels threatening to me right now! The reason you need hard evidence and can't just believe anything anyone says as proof is because in this case its matters of IP assignment and livelihood. I think I'd feel victimized if I was fired because my boss thought I was "harassing", even if there was no proof. Who is the real victim? Obviously, we want to believe the woman who wrote the article, but bear in mind, her harassment is limited to a few text messages and emails. On the other hand, our "villain" in this story has lost his coding, opportunities, and ideas that he contributed because he "wasn't a good fit". One person has "gained" from the situation, although they claim to "feel" threatened, despite dubious proof. The other has had actual physical loss in the situation, and you're asking why can't we just believe her? What if the ideas he contributed turn out to make billions, is she still the victim for putting up with a few emails, and is he still just some victimizer for trying to stay involved? Another reason we need to raise the bar is that believing these claims "on face" makes it all to easy to steal IP and exploit bosses/employees using harassment claims. I'm not saying that's what the article's author is doing, but it is a good reason to be skeptical (so prove to me you didn't just take this guy's work and claim you're the victim).
- openasocket 9y ago
  Honestly, I don't understand why people seem to care so much more about the IP issue than the alleged harassment and the lack of concern on the part of mentors about said harassment. Even if he was unfairly removed from the project (which I don't concede), his behavior is not acceptable, and mentors reactions to her claims are callous and inappropriate. > despite dubious proof Again, this is not a court of law, she isn't obligated to give the public proof that she was being harassed. > What if the ideas he contributed turn out to make billions He contributed a mock website and logo: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15587336 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15587336

jaxmurr 9y ago

> She's not doing this as revenge against him, or she would have given his name. She's not doing this because she's bitter about losing the competition because she won. Why can't we, even for a moment, believe this woman when she says "I don't feel safe" ? If she felt unsafe why didn't she just get a restraining order? Unless, of course, there wasn't adequate evidence to get one in the first place.

openasocket 9y ago
That's not how restraining orders work, it generally applies to things like direct death threats or physical altercations. They also take a long time to put in place and is a pretty extreme step to take. Instead she fired him from her startup, is that so unreasonable?
- jaxmurr 9y ago
  > That's not how restraining orders work, it generally applies to things like direct death threats or physical altercations. So, actual harassment? > Instead she fired him from her startup, is that so unreasonable? I think this is where the mentor talked about "karma biting back." She had these facts beforehand: 1) Mark is socially-inept and an asshole 2) Mark invested time and energy into the project 3) there were no legal contracts Is "firing" Mark (with no "smoking gun" event/email) and expecting him to bend over so reasonable? This really seems like IP theft with the OP hiding behind "harassment."
  - Khol 9y ago
    There are many things which aren't death threats or physical altercations which are harassment. I would certainly feel uncomfortable receiving those messages in the situation as described in the article.
  - cannonedhamster 9y ago
    Mark volunteered time into a project. Let's frame this as an open source project where you can also volunteer. * Person X is in charge of a group and has an idea for a coding project * Person Y decides to volunteer some coding time * Person X, with full authority to do so ends, the purely voluntary relationship * Person Y now decides that they are a co-founder and has equal rights and starts demanding compensation for the project that doesn't exist but could potentially exist in the future. They also continue to fire off emails becoming more demanding after it's made clear that the relationship has been terminated. Were this an open source project people would think what the contributor is doing is insane. That's clearly harassment. If I fire someone on a Friday and they show up on a Monday saying that they have a right to the company's future earnings and oh, by the way, do you want this t-shirt I made about the company, I'm going to call the police.
    - openmosix 9y ago
      When joining an opensource project, there is a license and you - as contributor - are transferring the IP ownership from you to the project through the license agreement. Following that, you can kick off anyone at any time from a project. However, that someone can fork the project and continue on his own. Even in for-profit projects, this happen: see the Arduino's drama as an example. If you and I have started a project together, and I haven't signed an IP ownership transfer (to you, the project, the company) - I am entitled to the full ownership of the intellectual rights of my work. Regardless if I get paid or not (even when I get paid, every company will ask you to sign a separate agreement where you transfer ownership of produced IP). So if I get "fired" - and I haven't signed any agreement - you are in trouble. Because from now on, /your/ project IP will always have the legal liability that at some point I can come back and claim it's mine. See Facebook and many other cases, where they worked on a project without clear initial paperwork - it's a very expensive mistake.

program_whiz 9y ago

Here's my take. You can say you "feel" a certain way under any circumstance, heck I could say your comment feels threatening to me right now! The reason you need hard evidence and can't just believe anything anyone says as proof is because in this case its matters of IP assignment and livelihood. I think I'd feel victimized if I was fired because my boss thought I was "harassing", even if there was no proof. Who is the real victim? Obviously, we want to believe the woman who wrote the article, but bear in mind, her harassment is limited to a few text messages and emails. On the other hand, our "villain" in this story has lost his coding, opportunities, and ideas that he contributed because he "wasn't a good fit". One person has "gained" from the situation, although they claim to "feel" threatened, despite dubious proof. The other has had actual physical loss in the situation, and you're asking why can't we just believe her? What if the ideas he contributed turn out to make billions, is she still the victim for putting up with a few emails, and is he still just some victimizer for trying to stay involved? Another reason we need to raise the bar is that believing these claims "on face" makes it all to easy to steal IP and exploit bosses/employees using harassment claims. I'm not saying that's what the article's author is doing, but it is a good reason to be skeptical (so prove to me you didn't just take this guy's work and claim you're the victim).

openasocket 9y ago
Honestly, I don't understand why people seem to care so much more about the IP issue than the alleged harassment and the lack of concern on the part of mentors about said harassment. Even if he was unfairly removed from the project (which I don't concede), his behavior is not acceptable, and mentors reactions to her claims are callous and inappropriate. > despite dubious proof Again, this is not a court of law, she isn't obligated to give the public proof that she was being harassed. > What if the ideas he contributed turn out to make billions He contributed a mock website and logo: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15587336 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15587336