13 ms·

Arcosanti, Paolo Soleri’s Arizona experiment in urban planning

101 points by anarbadalov 9y ago

craftyguy 9y ago
Where do they get their water from? Don't we currently have (or will have) a huge problem with supporting populations in areas where there is no local sustainable source of water?
- nkoren 9y ago
  The Agua Fria river flows about half a mile away from the site. Although it's rarely above ground, the subsurface flow is the third-largest in the state, and there aren't very many people upstream. Arcosanti has a well and gets all its water from there. Interestingly, the area is dotted with the ruins of numerous large Hohokam settlements; it's obvious that the population was much greater about 600 years ago than it is today. The Hohokam built some pretty sophisticated aqueducts, one of which is located on the Arcosanti property, which brought water up from the river to the settlements on top of the mesa. At the time, it seems that the rainfall pattern was dominated by small but frequent winter storms, resulting in almost year-round surface flow. But a change in the climate about 600 years ago switched the rainfall pattern monsoon-type: dry in the winter, and flash floods in the summer. The Hohokam aqueduct system couldn't cope with this, and their civilisation collapsed. So it's definitely a point worth being concerned about in that environment. Arcosanti, however, is fine.
  - mxuribe 9y ago
    If I remember my "history" correctly, actually, the trigger to climate change back at that time was related to pirates (or their diminishing thereof): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster#Pirates_and_global_warming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster#Pirat... ;-)
  - sbierwagen 9y ago
    >which brought water up from the river to the settlements on top of the mesa They pumped water uphill?
    - nkoren 9y ago
      No, they intercepted the water far enough upstream of their settlements. Let's say you have a pueblo on a 200 ft mesa, above a river that's running at a 4% gradient. Your aqueduct needs a 2% gradient to maintain good flow -- the Hohokam were excellent at maintaining consistent gradients over very long distances -- so what you need to do is build a small check dam 200 / (4% - 2%) = 10,000 ft upstream, with the stone aqueduct wending its way "up" the side of the mesa from there. Ruins of these kind of structures can be seen all over the area.
js2 9y ago
AMA from HN contributor nkoren who lived in Arcosanti for five years: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9072960 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9072960
- nkoren 9y ago
  Hah, you beat me to it! :-) Still happy to answer questions, although this is trending on a particularly bad day, as I'm moving house. Leave a question here, however, and I'll answer it.
  - soperj 9y ago
    I'm reading through your AMA, but how about, what would you do differently today if designing it from the ground up? EDIT: The ama wasn't very long. Also the place seems pretty small, but as someone who doesn't really know anything about it, what was the plan once it breached 5000 people?
    - soperj 9y ago
      Also, what did they do with the garbage?
      - nkoren 9y ago
        Answering this question first; will come back to your other tomorrow. - Organic waste is composted for the farm. - Glass is broken down into aggregate for the concrete (glass recycling is barely ecologically justifiable; reuse is better). - Other recyclable and non-recyclable waste is separated on-site and shipped off-site for a waste-disposal company to handle. So not overwhelmingly different to other places, in that respect.
        soperj 9y ago
        Thanks. Looking forward to the other answer :) Hope the move went well.
1024core 9y ago
Not much of a "city", it appears: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Arcosanti,+AZ+86333/@34.3427946,-112.1015342,283m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x872cef0edebffb03:0x68c31f0f2107d029!8m2!3d34.3425315!4d-112.1005547 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Arcosanti,+AZ+86333/@34.34... I'm not dismissing the idea at all; I'd just like to point out that a lot of the problems we see currently in cities are caused by the presence of a larger number of people.
simonebrunozzi 9y ago
I visited Arcosanti in 2014. On one side, amazing place. On the other, it's a failed project. Soleri stated that it can only be self-sustaining when it reaches 5,000 people. I think it never went above 200, and it's now below 100.
- acgourley 9y ago
  I was there earlier this year. The story is complex, but my understanding is that the main failure point was the local officials not wanting Arcosanti to exist and putting up regulatory barriers. It's worth noting that Soleri ran the project as a benevolent dictator, and when he fell into the poor health of old age most decisions stopped. He's recently past and left behind a bit of a power vacuum and the other people involved are reorganizing to deal with that. Coming out the other side of that reorg is an opportunity for change and it's too early to assume Arcosanti will stay in it's current form. They are basically blocked by money. If they could get enough money to pave the road to the property they could get building permits again. They need either a rich benefactor or a group of people interested in buying into the concept (and the leadership capacity to manage that).
  - Gargoyle 9y ago
    I feel reasonably sure they could have gotten the money for a fair amount of additional growth, but I never had the sense they had the will for it.
  - brianshaler 9y ago
    Even with paved access and a substantial budget, I'm not sure building permits would be feasible for any future construction. I don't know that they've been singled out by local officials so much as the original designs weren't forward compatible with modern (1980's+) building requirements. They've done a commendable job of trying to keep up with some modern advancements since the original designs were inked in the 60's. They have fiber optic internet access, some solar panels, and a few ADA-compliant ramps. My concerns would be more about integrity of the foundations. Modern surveying, concrete chemistry, and so on have raised the bar. I think there may have also been problems with routing utility lines with ventilation shafts and not having much of an alternative due to the structures being solid, load-bearing concrete. As an organization, I don't have very much faith in the leadership doing much more than barely staying afloat. There's a strong bias for seniority over meritocracy, which over the long term frustrates and deflects talented people with good ideas and favors people who just stick around or have don't have better alternatives.
avs733 9y ago
My father had been excited and advocating about Arcosanti for years. We visited on a trip through AZ and he left just forelorn and heartbroken. It was somewhat humorous because he went from weeks of not being able to stop talking about it to just silence in the span of the one hour visit. Great idea, but as with all projects - execution trumps vision.
- passivepinetree 9y ago
  Do you mind elaborating? What specifically was so disappointing? When did you guys visit? Has anything changed since then?
  - ianai 9y ago
    I liked arcosanti when I visited it. It was very much a small group of people essentially working for the artist though. I think the concept has merit. But this particular example was maybe co-opted for cheap labor. I say that as that may be something OPs father saw and felt disillusioned. I think even that may be a fine thing. Things have to start somewhere.
    - Gargoyle 9y ago
      I agree. It quite lived up to and even surpassed my expectations. But this would have been in the 90s. They had a nice little core built and it was a functioning artist colony. I've got a metal tile I bought there on my computer desk right now, as a little reminder of other possibilities.
      - jhbadger 9y ago
        But that's just it. It was supposed to be the FUTURE, not just some people making bells like you can kind anywhere.
        ianai 9y ago
        And we were going to have flying cars and colonies throughout space by now ;)
JohnJamesRambo 9y ago
I hope the future is more aesthetically pleasing than this.
- acgourley 9y ago
  I don't think the Vice article did a good job capturing its beauty. It is really marvelous in person.
spraak 9y ago
> It's just that at a certain point, the stripmalls and uniform beige housing developments give way to creosote, cacti, and the equally beige landscape of the Sonoran desert. I spent half my life there. So depressing, except when finally getting out into the natural desert.
- Bartweiss 9y ago
  "Equally beige" seems harsh of the writer. Phoenix is one of my least-favorite cities, but the Sonoran Desert is absolutely beautiful and far from bland. As you say, the only highlight of Phoenix for me was getting out of it.
  - spraak 9y ago
    I agree, the Sonoran Desert is so refreshing, and I hadn't actually caught that they'd said it was equally beige.
- jff 9y ago
  It's funny they pejoratively described the housing developments as beige, when all the pictures of Arcosanti are... beige concrete.
nerpderp83 9y ago
I visited in 2001. Concretesanti. It would far easier to buy land in Detroit and un-incorporate, or re-incorporate. I wouldn't use it as an argument for or against. It happened, and I am sure there are lots of lessons, but it definitely needed more people, more organic growth. Actually, it did need way more plants. And probably more technical folks.
dpleuler 9y ago
I visited Acrosanti this past summer. They have a few rooms available on AirBnB which I fully suggest checking out.
kkylin 9y ago
We visited a few years ago. It really is worth seeing in person, particularly if you were already making the drive from Phoenix up to Sedona / Flagstaff / Grand Canyon and can spare an hour or two. One really can sense both Soleri's vision and how far the implementation fell short of his ideals. By coincidence, we had visited shortly after Soleri died (had no idea until we got there). One of the people we met described Soleri's last visit to Arcosanti a few months prior. My memory's fuzzy now, but I think they said that he had looked around without saying much, then said something like "I'm done," and never went there again. (My apologies for misremembering the quote, it's been a little while and I haven't thought about it very often.)
na85 9y ago
Now I know I where the guy that beat Sim City got the name "Magnasanti". Impressive!
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
tiredwired 9y ago
I visited Arcosanti as a child in the late 70's and then again about 10 years ago. It looked like the city of the future in the 70's. 30 years later it did not seem like it aged well. It's like those Olympic stadiums that fall into disrepair a few years after the Olympics. I visited Biosphere 2. It's a completely different environment from Arcosanti. It failed to meet expectations despite how much money was invested.

101 points by anarbadalov 9y ago

Where do they get their water from? Don't we currently have (or will have) a huge problem with supporting populations in areas where there is no local sustainable source of water?

nkoren 9y ago
The Agua Fria river flows about half a mile away from the site. Although it's rarely above ground, the subsurface flow is the third-largest in the state, and there aren't very many people upstream. Arcosanti has a well and gets all its water from there. Interestingly, the area is dotted with the ruins of numerous large Hohokam settlements; it's obvious that the population was much greater about 600 years ago than it is today. The Hohokam built some pretty sophisticated aqueducts, one of which is located on the Arcosanti property, which brought water up from the river to the settlements on top of the mesa. At the time, it seems that the rainfall pattern was dominated by small but frequent winter storms, resulting in almost year-round surface flow. But a change in the climate about 600 years ago switched the rainfall pattern monsoon-type: dry in the winter, and flash floods in the summer. The Hohokam aqueduct system couldn't cope with this, and their civilisation collapsed. So it's definitely a point worth being concerned about in that environment. Arcosanti, however, is fine.
- mxuribe 9y ago
  If I remember my "history" correctly, actually, the trigger to climate change back at that time was related to pirates (or their diminishing thereof): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster#Pirates_and_global_warming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster#Pirat... ;-)
- sbierwagen 9y ago
  >which brought water up from the river to the settlements on top of the mesa They pumped water uphill?
  - nkoren 9y ago
    No, they intercepted the water far enough upstream of their settlements. Let's say you have a pueblo on a 200 ft mesa, above a river that's running at a 4% gradient. Your aqueduct needs a 2% gradient to maintain good flow -- the Hohokam were excellent at maintaining consistent gradients over very long distances -- so what you need to do is build a small check dam 200 / (4% - 2%) = 10,000 ft upstream, with the stone aqueduct wending its way "up" the side of the mesa from there. Ruins of these kind of structures can be seen all over the area.

js2 9y ago

AMA from HN contributor nkoren who lived in Arcosanti for five years: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9072960 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9072960

nkoren 9y ago
Hah, you beat me to it! :-) Still happy to answer questions, although this is trending on a particularly bad day, as I'm moving house. Leave a question here, however, and I'll answer it.
- soperj 9y ago
  I'm reading through your AMA, but how about, what would you do differently today if designing it from the ground up? EDIT: The ama wasn't very long. Also the place seems pretty small, but as someone who doesn't really know anything about it, what was the plan once it breached 5000 people?
  - soperj 9y ago
    Also, what did they do with the garbage?
    - nkoren 9y ago
      Answering this question first; will come back to your other tomorrow. - Organic waste is composted for the farm. - Glass is broken down into aggregate for the concrete (glass recycling is barely ecologically justifiable; reuse is better). - Other recyclable and non-recyclable waste is separated on-site and shipped off-site for a waste-disposal company to handle. So not overwhelmingly different to other places, in that respect.
      - soperj 9y ago
        Thanks. Looking forward to the other answer :) Hope the move went well.

1024core 9y ago

Not much of a "city", it appears: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Arcosanti,+AZ+86333/@34.3427946,-112.1015342,283m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x872cef0edebffb03:0x68c31f0f2107d029!8m2!3d34.3425315!4d-112.1005547 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Arcosanti,+AZ+86333/@34.34... I'm not dismissing the idea at all; I'd just like to point out that a lot of the problems we see currently in cities are caused by the presence of a larger number of people.

simonebrunozzi 9y ago

I visited Arcosanti in 2014. On one side, amazing place. On the other, it's a failed project. Soleri stated that it can only be self-sustaining when it reaches 5,000 people. I think it never went above 200, and it's now below 100.

acgourley 9y ago
I was there earlier this year. The story is complex, but my understanding is that the main failure point was the local officials not wanting Arcosanti to exist and putting up regulatory barriers. It's worth noting that Soleri ran the project as a benevolent dictator, and when he fell into the poor health of old age most decisions stopped. He's recently past and left behind a bit of a power vacuum and the other people involved are reorganizing to deal with that. Coming out the other side of that reorg is an opportunity for change and it's too early to assume Arcosanti will stay in it's current form. They are basically blocked by money. If they could get enough money to pave the road to the property they could get building permits again. They need either a rich benefactor or a group of people interested in buying into the concept (and the leadership capacity to manage that).
- Gargoyle 9y ago
  I feel reasonably sure they could have gotten the money for a fair amount of additional growth, but I never had the sense they had the will for it.
- brianshaler 9y ago
  Even with paved access and a substantial budget, I'm not sure building permits would be feasible for any future construction. I don't know that they've been singled out by local officials so much as the original designs weren't forward compatible with modern (1980's+) building requirements. They've done a commendable job of trying to keep up with some modern advancements since the original designs were inked in the 60's. They have fiber optic internet access, some solar panels, and a few ADA-compliant ramps. My concerns would be more about integrity of the foundations. Modern surveying, concrete chemistry, and so on have raised the bar. I think there may have also been problems with routing utility lines with ventilation shafts and not having much of an alternative due to the structures being solid, load-bearing concrete. As an organization, I don't have very much faith in the leadership doing much more than barely staying afloat. There's a strong bias for seniority over meritocracy, which over the long term frustrates and deflects talented people with good ideas and favors people who just stick around or have don't have better alternatives.

avs733 9y ago

My father had been excited and advocating about Arcosanti for years. We visited on a trip through AZ and he left just forelorn and heartbroken. It was somewhat humorous because he went from weeks of not being able to stop talking about it to just silence in the span of the one hour visit. Great idea, but as with all projects - execution trumps vision.

passivepinetree 9y ago
Do you mind elaborating? What specifically was so disappointing? When did you guys visit? Has anything changed since then?
- ianai 9y ago
  I liked arcosanti when I visited it. It was very much a small group of people essentially working for the artist though. I think the concept has merit. But this particular example was maybe co-opted for cheap labor. I say that as that may be something OPs father saw and felt disillusioned. I think even that may be a fine thing. Things have to start somewhere.
  - Gargoyle 9y ago
    I agree. It quite lived up to and even surpassed my expectations. But this would have been in the 90s. They had a nice little core built and it was a functioning artist colony. I've got a metal tile I bought there on my computer desk right now, as a little reminder of other possibilities.
    - jhbadger 9y ago
      But that's just it. It was supposed to be the FUTURE, not just some people making bells like you can kind anywhere.
      - ianai 9y ago
        And we were going to have flying cars and colonies throughout space by now ;)

JohnJamesRambo 9y ago

I hope the future is more aesthetically pleasing than this.

acgourley 9y ago
I don't think the Vice article did a good job capturing its beauty. It is really marvelous in person.

spraak 9y ago

> It's just that at a certain point, the stripmalls and uniform beige housing developments give way to creosote, cacti, and the equally beige landscape of the Sonoran desert. I spent half my life there. So depressing, except when finally getting out into the natural desert.

Bartweiss 9y ago
"Equally beige" seems harsh of the writer. Phoenix is one of my least-favorite cities, but the Sonoran Desert is absolutely beautiful and far from bland. As you say, the only highlight of Phoenix for me was getting out of it.
- spraak 9y ago
  I agree, the Sonoran Desert is so refreshing, and I hadn't actually caught that they'd said it was equally beige.
jff 9y ago
It's funny they pejoratively described the housing developments as beige, when all the pictures of Arcosanti are... beige concrete.

nerpderp83 9y ago

I visited in 2001. Concretesanti. It would far easier to buy land in Detroit and un-incorporate, or re-incorporate. I wouldn't use it as an argument for or against. It happened, and I am sure there are lots of lessons, but it definitely needed more people, more organic growth. Actually, it did need way more plants. And probably more technical folks.

dpleuler 9y ago

I visited Acrosanti this past summer. They have a few rooms available on AirBnB which I fully suggest checking out.

kkylin 9y ago

We visited a few years ago. It really is worth seeing in person, particularly if you were already making the drive from Phoenix up to Sedona / Flagstaff / Grand Canyon and can spare an hour or two. One really can sense both Soleri's vision and how far the implementation fell short of his ideals. By coincidence, we had visited shortly after Soleri died (had no idea until we got there). One of the people we met described Soleri's last visit to Arcosanti a few months prior. My memory's fuzzy now, but I think they said that he had looked around without saying much, then said something like "I'm done," and never went there again. (My apologies for misremembering the quote, it's been a little while and I haven't thought about it very often.)

na85 9y ago

Now I know I where the guy that beat Sim City got the name "Magnasanti". Impressive!

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

tiredwired 9y ago

I visited Arcosanti as a child in the late 70's and then again about 10 years ago. It looked like the city of the future in the 70's. 30 years later it did not seem like it aged well. It's like those Olympic stadiums that fall into disrepair a few years after the Olympics. I visited Biosphere 2. It's a completely different environment from Arcosanti. It failed to meet expectations despite how much money was invested.