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I think these type of discussions are really detached from the reality of what neural networks, AI or evolutionary algorithms are. These are mathematical model

I think these type of discussions are really detached from the reality of what neural networks, AI or evolutionary algorithms are. These are mathematical models that optimise a specific fitness function, they borrow some biological concepts but they are not going to "evolve into ant-level intelligence".

smallnamespace 9y ago
> they are not going to "evolve into ant-level intelligence" How do we know until we've tried it? I mean, at a certain level of abstraction, you can just view humans as a bunch of atoms that have been placed in a heat bath for a very long time. And yet intelligence seems to have spontaneously self-organized from it.
- halflings 9y ago
  Again, this is very detached from what ANNs or genetic algorithms are: relatively simple methods to optimise fitness (or "cost") functions. They are nowhere close to the complexity of a brain, and certainly do not have enough capacity to be a realistic simulation of the universe. > How do we know until we've tried it? Tried what, is the question? What's an ant-level intelligence? We have algorithms that can detect images/speech at super-human level (at least in some conditions). Worthy questions, but unrelated to these algorithms.
  - Turing_Machine 9y ago
    I'm not sure that ants are doing a "realistic simulation of the universe", though, or anything like it. From what I understand, they're a lot closer to little robots than they are to something that can do Kip Thorne-level astrophysics, or Thomas Aquinas-level philosophy. I am thinking, in particular, of an experiment done by Richard Feynman where he got ants walking across small sheets of glass. After shuffling the sheets around so the chemical trail became a loop, he was able to get the ants tirelessly marching around in a circle (which they would presumably do until they dropped). Heck, you probably don't even need an ANN at all to do that, much less an evolutionary one.
- goatlover 9y ago
  You could view it that way, but it won't do you much good, since biology is a long ways from physics, and humans didn't spontaneously emerge from a long standing heat bath.
  - Turing_Machine 9y ago
    "humans didn't spontaneously emerge from a long standing heat bath." They didn't? I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you arguing intelligent design or something? Because the standard evolutionary theories postulate that humans did, in fact, spontaneously arise from a heat bath (the heat coming from the Sun).
    - goatlover 9y ago
      If by "spontaneous", you mean a process taking several billion years which included heat from the sun, but also resources on Earth, with billions of previous ancestral forms from simple replicators to complex multicellular organisms, then okay. That's not what I typically think of when I hear the word "spontaneous". Spontaneous emergence sounds to me like lightning hitting a swamp over a period of time, and then by a pure chance arrangement of molecules, a fully formed swamp man comes out of it. That's way different than an evolutionary process.
      - smallnamespace 9y ago
        But that's what the discussion is about here: > Do you think creating a 3D universe (like that being worked on by open.ai), putting the evolvable agents in it and trying to make them evolve learning and intelligence is a good idea Basically simulating a universe, seeded with some things we think are already somewhere along the road to intelligence, then seeing if progress is made just by simulating for a long time.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
  - goatlover 9y ago
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
canjobear 9y ago
Given a fitness function that is the same as an ant's, it seems plausible that they would. The question is, what is that function?
- malux85 9y ago
  Balanced Homeostasis? Maybe we could just start with that - it might give an organism life, but it would be interesting to see if social emergent behaviors came from a group of agents optimizing homeostasis alone
- halflings 9y ago
  > Given a fitness function that is the same as an ant's, it seems plausible that they would. > The question is, what is that function? Not necessarily. Everything points to the fact that the humain brain (at least, I don't know much about ants) does not work in any way similar to neural networks, and as such there's no guarantee that you can represent its behaviour by the current algorithms. For example, real neurons have no supervision signal. Memory is also a big issue (see the work being done by DeepMind and FAIR on differentiable neural computers, and memory networks) and Reinforcement Learning still struggles with long-term planing, switching strategies, etc.
  - catamorphismic 9y ago
    > Not necessarily. Everything points to the fact that the human brain (at least, I don't know much about ants) does not work in any way similar to neural networks, and as such there's no guarantee that you can represent its behaviour by the current algorithms. Yes, the brain is most likely not simply modelling one giant ANN, but it's much more plausible that ANN-like components have a role in it.
  - canjobear 9y ago
    If there is a space of optimal policies for the ant, then both the ANN and real neural systems will be attracted there. There are certainly a lot of local minima, but it would be surprising to me if ANNs and real neural systems could only find totally disjoint local minima with no similarities.

smallnamespace 9y ago

> they are not going to "evolve into ant-level intelligence" How do we know until we've tried it? I mean, at a certain level of abstraction, you can just view humans as a bunch of atoms that have been placed in a heat bath for a very long time. And yet intelligence seems to have spontaneously self-organized from it.

halflings 9y ago
Again, this is very detached from what ANNs or genetic algorithms are: relatively simple methods to optimise fitness (or "cost") functions. They are nowhere close to the complexity of a brain, and certainly do not have enough capacity to be a realistic simulation of the universe. > How do we know until we've tried it? Tried what, is the question? What's an ant-level intelligence? We have algorithms that can detect images/speech at super-human level (at least in some conditions). Worthy questions, but unrelated to these algorithms.
- Turing_Machine 9y ago
  I'm not sure that ants are doing a "realistic simulation of the universe", though, or anything like it. From what I understand, they're a lot closer to little robots than they are to something that can do Kip Thorne-level astrophysics, or Thomas Aquinas-level philosophy. I am thinking, in particular, of an experiment done by Richard Feynman where he got ants walking across small sheets of glass. After shuffling the sheets around so the chemical trail became a loop, he was able to get the ants tirelessly marching around in a circle (which they would presumably do until they dropped). Heck, you probably don't even need an ANN at all to do that, much less an evolutionary one.
goatlover 9y ago
You could view it that way, but it won't do you much good, since biology is a long ways from physics, and humans didn't spontaneously emerge from a long standing heat bath.
- Turing_Machine 9y ago
  "humans didn't spontaneously emerge from a long standing heat bath." They didn't? I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you arguing intelligent design or something? Because the standard evolutionary theories postulate that humans did, in fact, spontaneously arise from a heat bath (the heat coming from the Sun).
  - goatlover 9y ago
    If by "spontaneous", you mean a process taking several billion years which included heat from the sun, but also resources on Earth, with billions of previous ancestral forms from simple replicators to complex multicellular organisms, then okay. That's not what I typically think of when I hear the word "spontaneous". Spontaneous emergence sounds to me like lightning hitting a swamp over a period of time, and then by a pure chance arrangement of molecules, a fully formed swamp man comes out of it. That's way different than an evolutionary process.
    - smallnamespace 9y ago
      But that's what the discussion is about here: > Do you think creating a 3D universe (like that being worked on by open.ai), putting the evolvable agents in it and trying to make them evolve learning and intelligence is a good idea Basically simulating a universe, seeded with some things we think are already somewhere along the road to intelligence, then seeing if progress is made just by simulating for a long time.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
- goatlover 9y ago
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

canjobear 9y ago

Given a fitness function that is the same as an ant's, it seems plausible that they would. The question is, what is that function?

malux85 9y ago
Balanced Homeostasis? Maybe we could just start with that - it might give an organism life, but it would be interesting to see if social emergent behaviors came from a group of agents optimizing homeostasis alone
halflings 9y ago
> Given a fitness function that is the same as an ant's, it seems plausible that they would. > The question is, what is that function? Not necessarily. Everything points to the fact that the humain brain (at least, I don't know much about ants) does not work in any way similar to neural networks, and as such there's no guarantee that you can represent its behaviour by the current algorithms. For example, real neurons have no supervision signal. Memory is also a big issue (see the work being done by DeepMind and FAIR on differentiable neural computers, and memory networks) and Reinforcement Learning still struggles with long-term planing, switching strategies, etc.
- catamorphismic 9y ago
  > Not necessarily. Everything points to the fact that the human brain (at least, I don't know much about ants) does not work in any way similar to neural networks, and as such there's no guarantee that you can represent its behaviour by the current algorithms. Yes, the brain is most likely not simply modelling one giant ANN, but it's much more plausible that ANN-like components have a role in it.
- canjobear 9y ago
  If there is a space of optimal policies for the ant, then both the ANN and real neural systems will be attracted there. There are certainly a lot of local minima, but it would be surprising to me if ANNs and real neural systems could only find totally disjoint local minima with no similarities.