5 ms·

I feel like you're missing his whole point, which is the use of superheroes as a kind of escapism from the complexities of life. Citing superficial similarities

I feel like you're missing his whole point, which is the use of superheroes as a kind of escapism from the complexities of life. Citing superficial similarities to mythical figures is just a way of sidestepping his actual arguments.

ubernostrum 9y ago
Do you believe one of the uses of mythology and epic cultural sagas in earlier ages wasn't "a kind of escapism"?
- toyg 9y ago
  Yes, but when you look at the ratio of escapist material to material that was used to directly make sense of the world around the audience, older material seems to have a smaller amount of fluff. However, this is probably just a function of historical preservation; we only know of the masterpieces that were passed down because of them being key to philosophical research, while tons of "lighter" material has simply been lost (and keeps being lost every day).
  - ubernostrum 9y ago
    A lot of those epics weren't to "make sense of the world". They were to transmit cultural values, and let the audience feel they were part of something bigger. For example, if you're an ordinary Roman hearing the Aeneid, what you're hearing is not a story to explain why there's thunder or how the world got made -- what you're hearing is a story that says, no matter how low you may be in the system of Roman civilization, you and all Romans share in a greater destiny.
  - ehnto 9y ago
    I wonder if how completely we have attempted to understand our world has led only to greater cynicism, and there followed increased escapism. When there is no low hanging fruit left to ponder the pondering gets done by specialists. Likewise there is less need for light practical advice books because industrialization has made the individual crafstman less common, and again specialists take center stage in their silos of information. It's also unlikely to be in a book.
branchless 9y ago
It's interesting the way films like the original superman had a very clear hero "doing good". And now we have superheroes with clear flaws, wresting with their conscience and shades of gray. This mirrors the USA fall from hegemony.
humanrebar 9y ago
> Citing superficial similarities to mythical figures... I think you missed why I quoted Tolkien. There's something compelling about a common mythology for a culture. The modern cosmopolitan culture, American especially, doesn't have an ethnic, racial, or language identity to fall back on when exploring identity, struggle, the merits of sacrifice, moral issues, etc. Mythological figures allow us to explore these themes in a less traumatic way. You can call that "escapism", I guess, but I think The Dark Knight was one of the few films that wrestled with the War on Terror in honest ways. It had to be a mythological film (Batman v. Joker) because the same subject would have gone over rather poorly in one way or another if it were an actual terrorism/spy thriller or something. Anyway, I think Tolkien wasn't exactly wrong to pine for an exploration of culture, language, and identity through mythological archetypes. He, in particular, wanted non-borrowed ones. We are sort of in the same boat since nearly all content is borrowed in a global market.
- samirillian 9y ago
  I get the idea of having some sort of shared cultural touchstones. But there are plenty of candidates for that role. Not to belabor the point, but why the guys in tights and not, say, the characters from the Abrahamic faiths? Well, you say, it's dangerous to mix faith with fantasy. But that's exactly what the old myths did and what Tolkien could do by implicitly associating his stories with Christianity, and exactly what Batman will never be. So much for the structural similarities between the Superman and Hercules. But, again, this is all beside the point. The devil is in the details. There might be nothing inherently wrong with making superheroes the source of a shared cultural vocabulary about "spiritual" questions: what is right, what is wrong, what is bravery, etc. But how has it actually unfolded, in the world, right now? Again, Moore argues that, in the concrete, it has led to a kind of infantilism. You bring up the Dark Knight. I don't personally like what I took away as the message of the Dark Knight, but I understand if you do. But can you name a single other example with actual critical value? Or do the vast majority just serve to make unhappy people, sleepwalking through life, continue unhappily sleepwalking?
datawarrior 9y ago
Whats wrong with escapism? I'm an adult, I can grok the world the way it is. I can also sit and enjoy a comic book movie or just a comicbook. That has no baring on my ability to take the world seriously. In fact everyone needs an escape from time to time. Moore is just being a dullard trying to poo poo on peoples fun.

ubernostrum 9y ago

Do you believe one of the uses of mythology and epic cultural sagas in earlier ages wasn't "a kind of escapism"?

toyg 9y ago
Yes, but when you look at the ratio of escapist material to material that was used to directly make sense of the world around the audience, older material seems to have a smaller amount of fluff. However, this is probably just a function of historical preservation; we only know of the masterpieces that were passed down because of them being key to philosophical research, while tons of "lighter" material has simply been lost (and keeps being lost every day).
- ubernostrum 9y ago
  A lot of those epics weren't to "make sense of the world". They were to transmit cultural values, and let the audience feel they were part of something bigger. For example, if you're an ordinary Roman hearing the Aeneid, what you're hearing is not a story to explain why there's thunder or how the world got made -- what you're hearing is a story that says, no matter how low you may be in the system of Roman civilization, you and all Romans share in a greater destiny.
- ehnto 9y ago
  I wonder if how completely we have attempted to understand our world has led only to greater cynicism, and there followed increased escapism. When there is no low hanging fruit left to ponder the pondering gets done by specialists. Likewise there is less need for light practical advice books because industrialization has made the individual crafstman less common, and again specialists take center stage in their silos of information. It's also unlikely to be in a book.

branchless 9y ago

It's interesting the way films like the original superman had a very clear hero "doing good". And now we have superheroes with clear flaws, wresting with their conscience and shades of gray. This mirrors the USA fall from hegemony.

humanrebar 9y ago

> Citing superficial similarities to mythical figures... I think you missed why I quoted Tolkien. There's something compelling about a common mythology for a culture. The modern cosmopolitan culture, American especially, doesn't have an ethnic, racial, or language identity to fall back on when exploring identity, struggle, the merits of sacrifice, moral issues, etc. Mythological figures allow us to explore these themes in a less traumatic way. You can call that "escapism", I guess, but I think The Dark Knight was one of the few films that wrestled with the War on Terror in honest ways. It had to be a mythological film (Batman v. Joker) because the same subject would have gone over rather poorly in one way or another if it were an actual terrorism/spy thriller or something. Anyway, I think Tolkien wasn't exactly wrong to pine for an exploration of culture, language, and identity through mythological archetypes. He, in particular, wanted non-borrowed ones. We are sort of in the same boat since nearly all content is borrowed in a global market.

samirillian 9y ago
I get the idea of having some sort of shared cultural touchstones. But there are plenty of candidates for that role. Not to belabor the point, but why the guys in tights and not, say, the characters from the Abrahamic faiths? Well, you say, it's dangerous to mix faith with fantasy. But that's exactly what the old myths did and what Tolkien could do by implicitly associating his stories with Christianity, and exactly what Batman will never be. So much for the structural similarities between the Superman and Hercules. But, again, this is all beside the point. The devil is in the details. There might be nothing inherently wrong with making superheroes the source of a shared cultural vocabulary about "spiritual" questions: what is right, what is wrong, what is bravery, etc. But how has it actually unfolded, in the world, right now? Again, Moore argues that, in the concrete, it has led to a kind of infantilism. You bring up the Dark Knight. I don't personally like what I took away as the message of the Dark Knight, but I understand if you do. But can you name a single other example with actual critical value? Or do the vast majority just serve to make unhappy people, sleepwalking through life, continue unhappily sleepwalking?

datawarrior 9y ago

Whats wrong with escapism? I'm an adult, I can grok the world the way it is. I can also sit and enjoy a comic book movie or just a comicbook. That has no baring on my ability to take the world seriously. In fact everyone needs an escape from time to time. Moore is just being a dullard trying to poo poo on peoples fun.