5 ms·

The 4H example in the article was odd. If you are president of 4H and want to go into some sort of agricultural field, what they hell are you going to do at Har

by codva 16y ago

The 4H example in the article was odd. If you are president of 4H and want to go into some sort of agricultural field, what they hell are you going to do at Harvard or Yale anyway? You aren't even applying to those schools. You are going to a large land grant university, where the top agricultural programs are located. In a sense the deans at these elite colleges are correct. The odds of the 4H President being happy at Harvard are probably quite low.

yalurker 16y ago
And why the heck would a kid in band go to Harvard? He should be getting in a van and going on tour. And why would a kid in the chess club go to Yale? He should be playing chess. And why would a kid on the baseball team... The typical over-achieving student is going to be in dozens of activities, none of which necessarily correlate with their future career. Agriculture might seem really weird or foreign to you, but for much of America being in FFA/4H/Eagle Scouts/whatever is just as normal as band, chess or sports.
- william42 16y ago
  Actually, I seriously doubt a good baseball player is going to be going to an Ivy League school, for a simple two-word reason. Athletic scholarships. Ivy League schools have none.
- codva 16y ago
  If the kid in band wants to be a touring rock musician, then he absolutely should get in the van and go on tour. Or maybe get a degree as a back up and then go on tour - but I probably wouldn't recommend spending Harvard money on that degree. My daughter is an officer in 4H - a horse club. I'm quite familiar with the organization. My point was that for those kids that fit the stereotype that the authors were picking on, high achievers with interests that don't fit the "elite" school stereotype, the admissions folks may have a point. The Harvards of the worlds may not be the best school for those kids. It's not necessarily evidence of bigotry.
dgabriel 16y ago
Unless it's this 4H club: http://www.air4h.org/about/ http://www.air4h.org/about/
- codva 16y ago
  4H is trying to become more relevant to urban and suburban kids. But it is overwhelmingly still agriculturally focused. If you are President of the 4H Robotics Club I doubt the dean of Engineering at Harvard is going to hold it against you. If you are president of a traditional 4H club the admissions folks at Harvard probably should wonder why you want to come there. If the rest of your application shows an interest and aptitude for math and engineering, you are probably fine. IMO, the authors of the article failed to show widespread discrimination against poor whites, and failed miserably with their chosen example of 4H and FFA. You might say they showed a certain elitist bigotry themselves, which is ironic given the point they are trying to make.
  - dgabriel 16y ago
    I agree with you. I also think that the Robotics 4H club is great, and wanted to share the link...
starkfist 16y ago
After re-reading the article I wonder if it is really coherent to have a category called "elite schools" to which one can apply these blanket observations. I think you are right, an agriculturally inclined student probably would not feel like they fit in at Yale. However, Cornell is also an Ivy, and they have a serious agricultural sciences program. The article also mentions ROTC. I was once a TA at MIT, and there were many ROTC students at MIT. I believe MIT is now not just considered an elite engineering school, but just an "elite" school like the Ivies. And, I don't think they discriminate against ROTC students. Furthermore, if they aren't already, the elite American universities of the future are Stanford and NYU, which seem to have much different student preferences than the Ivies or even hardcore engineering schools like MIT and Harvard, even though they are all lumped in together.
- codva 16y ago
  I didn't realize Cornell is a Ivy. Great school, but I'll bet it wasn't what the author's were referring to as elite. And I agree, the term elite in this sense is sort of meaningless.
- hga 16y ago
  MIT was not one of the 8 schools in that study, it doesn't discriminate against Asians. It factors in the opportunities a student has and admits students who therefore appear to have less going for them (it uses other metrics, a big one is being project oriented). It has at least in times past actively recruited white working class male students from the Midwest because they were underrepresented. MIT has a big advantage, for there are no legacies to speak of. Everyone has to pass one year of the calculus (first term is the AP BC curriculum) and one year of calculus based physics. So MIT admits nobody who can't do the work. Legacies will get a "second look" if they don't make the first cut, but that's all. (As it is, the raw odds of admission are 1/3 if MIT thinks you can do the work.) It doesn't take many students from the fancy prep schools (I don't think many apply, MIT never was part of the elite prep school to Ivy/Ivy imitator path). So it simply has a lot more room for working class students. Anecdotally, it doesn't seem to discriminate against Christians or students who have made achievements in those institutions cited in the study where for the normal elite colleges their chances of admission drop by 60-5%. As you note, MIT has ROTC units (if you get an ROTC scholarship at e.g. Harvard you have to go to MIT for the classes and other activities...). (BTW, Harvard is not a "hardcore engineering school" ^_^. Although they did try to assimilate MIT in the years before it moved to Cambridge, that even led to a street riot in 1904 or 5. Heck, Harvard is so unhardcore that the last time I checked (end of the '80s) all you had to do WRT math was to prove you could do algebra.)
anamax 16y ago
> If you are president of 4H and want to go into some sort of agricultural field, what they hell are you going to do at Harvard or Yale anyway? They don't do biology at Harvard? 4H isn't specific to future farmers. (Heck, Future Farmers of America, aka, FFA, isn't specific to future farmers.) If you're going to argue that a specific kind of discrimination is rational, shouldn't you actually know what you're talking about?

by codva 16y ago

yalurker 16y ago

And why the heck would a kid in band go to Harvard? He should be getting in a van and going on tour. And why would a kid in the chess club go to Yale? He should be playing chess. And why would a kid on the baseball team... The typical over-achieving student is going to be in dozens of activities, none of which necessarily correlate with their future career. Agriculture might seem really weird or foreign to you, but for much of America being in FFA/4H/Eagle Scouts/whatever is just as normal as band, chess or sports.

william42 16y ago
Actually, I seriously doubt a good baseball player is going to be going to an Ivy League school, for a simple two-word reason. Athletic scholarships. Ivy League schools have none.
codva 16y ago
If the kid in band wants to be a touring rock musician, then he absolutely should get in the van and go on tour. Or maybe get a degree as a back up and then go on tour - but I probably wouldn't recommend spending Harvard money on that degree. My daughter is an officer in 4H - a horse club. I'm quite familiar with the organization. My point was that for those kids that fit the stereotype that the authors were picking on, high achievers with interests that don't fit the "elite" school stereotype, the admissions folks may have a point. The Harvards of the worlds may not be the best school for those kids. It's not necessarily evidence of bigotry.

dgabriel 16y ago

Unless it's this 4H club: http://www.air4h.org/about/ http://www.air4h.org/about/

codva 16y ago
4H is trying to become more relevant to urban and suburban kids. But it is overwhelmingly still agriculturally focused. If you are President of the 4H Robotics Club I doubt the dean of Engineering at Harvard is going to hold it against you. If you are president of a traditional 4H club the admissions folks at Harvard probably should wonder why you want to come there. If the rest of your application shows an interest and aptitude for math and engineering, you are probably fine. IMO, the authors of the article failed to show widespread discrimination against poor whites, and failed miserably with their chosen example of 4H and FFA. You might say they showed a certain elitist bigotry themselves, which is ironic given the point they are trying to make.
- dgabriel 16y ago
  I agree with you. I also think that the Robotics 4H club is great, and wanted to share the link...

starkfist 16y ago

After re-reading the article I wonder if it is really coherent to have a category called "elite schools" to which one can apply these blanket observations. I think you are right, an agriculturally inclined student probably would not feel like they fit in at Yale. However, Cornell is also an Ivy, and they have a serious agricultural sciences program. The article also mentions ROTC. I was once a TA at MIT, and there were many ROTC students at MIT. I believe MIT is now not just considered an elite engineering school, but just an "elite" school like the Ivies. And, I don't think they discriminate against ROTC students. Furthermore, if they aren't already, the elite American universities of the future are Stanford and NYU, which seem to have much different student preferences than the Ivies or even hardcore engineering schools like MIT and Harvard, even though they are all lumped in together.

codva 16y ago
I didn't realize Cornell is a Ivy. Great school, but I'll bet it wasn't what the author's were referring to as elite. And I agree, the term elite in this sense is sort of meaningless.
hga 16y ago
MIT was not one of the 8 schools in that study, it doesn't discriminate against Asians. It factors in the opportunities a student has and admits students who therefore appear to have less going for them (it uses other metrics, a big one is being project oriented). It has at least in times past actively recruited white working class male students from the Midwest because they were underrepresented. MIT has a big advantage, for there are no legacies to speak of. Everyone has to pass one year of the calculus (first term is the AP BC curriculum) and one year of calculus based physics. So MIT admits nobody who can't do the work. Legacies will get a "second look" if they don't make the first cut, but that's all. (As it is, the raw odds of admission are 1/3 if MIT thinks you can do the work.) It doesn't take many students from the fancy prep schools (I don't think many apply, MIT never was part of the elite prep school to Ivy/Ivy imitator path). So it simply has a lot more room for working class students. Anecdotally, it doesn't seem to discriminate against Christians or students who have made achievements in those institutions cited in the study where for the normal elite colleges their chances of admission drop by 60-5%. As you note, MIT has ROTC units (if you get an ROTC scholarship at e.g. Harvard you have to go to MIT for the classes and other activities...). (BTW, Harvard is not a "hardcore engineering school" ^_^. Although they did try to assimilate MIT in the years before it moved to Cambridge, that even led to a street riot in 1904 or 5. Heck, Harvard is so unhardcore that the last time I checked (end of the '80s) all you had to do WRT math was to prove you could do algebra.)

anamax 16y ago

> If you are president of 4H and want to go into some sort of agricultural field, what they hell are you going to do at Harvard or Yale anyway? They don't do biology at Harvard? 4H isn't specific to future farmers. (Heck, Future Farmers of America, aka, FFA, isn't specific to future farmers.) If you're going to argue that a specific kind of discrimination is rational, shouldn't you actually know what you're talking about?