3 ms·

Or, ya know, you could pay teachers more across the board and do away with the loan tomfuckery.

by beisner 9y ago

Spooky23 9y ago
Good luck getting your local school-board to fund $90k starting salaries for teachers!
- vkou 9y ago
  Well, they certainly find such salaries for administration. (Something about paying market rates.)
  - wavefunction 9y ago
    Fire one administrator and suddenly you have the budget to bring two teachers up to 90k.
    - bittercynic 9y ago
      Not so easy to do when the administrators can influence which positions to keep.
  - forapurpose 9y ago
    > they certainly find such salaries for administration This is one of those claims that in a way has become 'common wisdom', but that I've seen no actual evidence of. I wonder if it's just one of those talking points of people who want to cut taxes that has never been challenged or at least defined, like "government waste". It's like an end-user saying 'my computer's software is buggy' - that doesn't tell me anything, and for all I know it's your power supply, monitor, or a million other possibilities, or even a matter of perception by a user in a bad mood or with a bias. Especially we don't know the problem definition: Which administrators are overpaid? How frequently? Is it certain administrative jobs? In certain size districts? Is it due to some other problem? And which administrators are underpaid? Finally, while we should pay attention to these issues, let's not catastrophize every problem into a organizational disaster. I know plenty of administrators in business who are overpaid; the perfect human institution doesn't exist.
    - germinalphrase 9y ago
      I think it's a meme that has carried over to k12 from stories about massive administration growth in higher ed relative to teaching staff. It also is challenging to make apples:apples comparison between teacher and administrator salaries as the contracts are structured very diferently. That said - anecdotally, admin salaries are commonly 2x+ average teacher salaries in districts that I have had experience teaching within.
      - secabeen 9y ago
        And even in higher-ed, it's largely a false narrative as well. Overall spending per student at state schools is down. Here are the numbers for UC: http://dailybruin.com/2014/11/18/tuition-rises-despite-declining-uc-spending-per-student/ http://dailybruin.com/2014/11/18/tuition-rises-despite-decli... Administrative salaries are up, but generally in line with increases in research funding (research funding has a lot of administrative overhead. Read OMB Circular A-21 if you want to see some example details.) Yes, there are reports of some over-payments at the top executive levels, but just like in a corporation, overpaying the C-Level executives by $10/mil a year just doesn't move the needle for companies with 10's of billions of dollars a year in revenue.
    - sjg007 9y ago
      A lot of CEOs are overpaid.
    - Spooky23 9y ago
      My personal pet peeve here is that school superintendents get to negotiate with the board and get all sorts of premium benefits (ie free healthcare for life, second pensions, etc) with minimal transparency. Other similar jobs, like police chiefs, are civil service positions with standardized deals. Administration is growing because compliance requirements are growing.
- forapurpose 9y ago
  Local school boards are something you can influence much more effectively than national policy. Yes, you can convince your neighbors that they should pay teachers more; I would bet that the best place to start would be a district with a high proportion of families with school-age children, and with a high proportion of teachers living there. I'm not saying it's easy, but lots of progress in the world begins with things that are hard or nobody has done.
- valuearb 9y ago
  The average cost of the average teacher has to be approaching $90k a year already. In Arizona, a state not known for education spending, spends close to $15k per teacher on pension contributions. Add in medical and other benefits, 3 months vacation, tenure, payroll taxes and the typical teacher is near there.
  - megaman22 9y ago
    You do NOT want to suggest to a teacher that their salary isn't that bad, for working 3/4 of the year. Especially if there are any throwable objects at hand... Whether they are or not, many firmly believe they are underpaid.
  - justin66 9y ago
    > The average cost of the average teacher has to be approaching $90k a year already. It would be interesting to know where you got that. This is an area where people feel free to spread disinformation so I'd be careful. > In Arizona, a state not known for education spending, spends close to $15k per teacher on pension contributions. Add in medical and other benefits, 3 months vacation, tenure, payroll taxes and the typical teacher is near there. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d16/tables/dt16_211.60.asp?current=yes https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d16/tables/dt16_211.60.a... The interesting thing about Arizona is that salaries - which aren't great - are trending downward.
megaman22 9y ago
Everybody I know who isn't completely saddled with student loan debt burns out of teaching in five to ten years and moves on to something else. Almost all the rest of them are just as burned out, their options are just more limited, for one reason or another.
- vkou 9y ago
  And yet, the teachers that taught me while I was a child (In BC) spent anywhere between 2 and 30 years on the job. What has changed? Why is teaching in America such a terrible job?
  - stewartbutler 9y ago
    "No child left behind" and similar initiatives that lead to perverted incentives that the teachers bear the brunt of. Also low pay and no respect.
    - valuearb 9y ago
      Teachers are doing fine. Three months off a year, government level medical benefits, and lucrative pensions after only 25 years (sometimes only 20). Not to mention tenure. Schools are paying enough to not have any lack of candidates for open positions. Their real problem is to equate “teaching certificates’ and credentials with teaching ability.
      - vkou 9y ago
        > Teachers are doing fine. Great! > Three months off a year. This is like saying that ski instructors get nine months off a year. It's not paid leave.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]

Or, ya know, you could pay teachers more across the board and do away with the loan tomfuckery.

Spooky23 9y ago

Good luck getting your local school-board to fund $90k starting salaries for teachers!

vkou 9y ago
Well, they certainly find such salaries for administration. (Something about paying market rates.)
- wavefunction 9y ago
  Fire one administrator and suddenly you have the budget to bring two teachers up to 90k.
  - bittercynic 9y ago
    Not so easy to do when the administrators can influence which positions to keep.
- forapurpose 9y ago
  > they certainly find such salaries for administration This is one of those claims that in a way has become 'common wisdom', but that I've seen no actual evidence of. I wonder if it's just one of those talking points of people who want to cut taxes that has never been challenged or at least defined, like "government waste". It's like an end-user saying 'my computer's software is buggy' - that doesn't tell me anything, and for all I know it's your power supply, monitor, or a million other possibilities, or even a matter of perception by a user in a bad mood or with a bias. Especially we don't know the problem definition: Which administrators are overpaid? How frequently? Is it certain administrative jobs? In certain size districts? Is it due to some other problem? And which administrators are underpaid? Finally, while we should pay attention to these issues, let's not catastrophize every problem into a organizational disaster. I know plenty of administrators in business who are overpaid; the perfect human institution doesn't exist.
  - germinalphrase 9y ago
    I think it's a meme that has carried over to k12 from stories about massive administration growth in higher ed relative to teaching staff. It also is challenging to make apples:apples comparison between teacher and administrator salaries as the contracts are structured very diferently. That said - anecdotally, admin salaries are commonly 2x+ average teacher salaries in districts that I have had experience teaching within.
    - secabeen 9y ago
      And even in higher-ed, it's largely a false narrative as well. Overall spending per student at state schools is down. Here are the numbers for UC: http://dailybruin.com/2014/11/18/tuition-rises-despite-declining-uc-spending-per-student/ http://dailybruin.com/2014/11/18/tuition-rises-despite-decli... Administrative salaries are up, but generally in line with increases in research funding (research funding has a lot of administrative overhead. Read OMB Circular A-21 if you want to see some example details.) Yes, there are reports of some over-payments at the top executive levels, but just like in a corporation, overpaying the C-Level executives by $10/mil a year just doesn't move the needle for companies with 10's of billions of dollars a year in revenue.
  - sjg007 9y ago
    A lot of CEOs are overpaid.
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    My personal pet peeve here is that school superintendents get to negotiate with the board and get all sorts of premium benefits (ie free healthcare for life, second pensions, etc) with minimal transparency. Other similar jobs, like police chiefs, are civil service positions with standardized deals. Administration is growing because compliance requirements are growing.
forapurpose 9y ago
Local school boards are something you can influence much more effectively than national policy. Yes, you can convince your neighbors that they should pay teachers more; I would bet that the best place to start would be a district with a high proportion of families with school-age children, and with a high proportion of teachers living there. I'm not saying it's easy, but lots of progress in the world begins with things that are hard or nobody has done.
valuearb 9y ago
The average cost of the average teacher has to be approaching $90k a year already. In Arizona, a state not known for education spending, spends close to $15k per teacher on pension contributions. Add in medical and other benefits, 3 months vacation, tenure, payroll taxes and the typical teacher is near there.
- megaman22 9y ago
  You do NOT want to suggest to a teacher that their salary isn't that bad, for working 3/4 of the year. Especially if there are any throwable objects at hand... Whether they are or not, many firmly believe they are underpaid.
- justin66 9y ago
  > The average cost of the average teacher has to be approaching $90k a year already. It would be interesting to know where you got that. This is an area where people feel free to spread disinformation so I'd be careful. > In Arizona, a state not known for education spending, spends close to $15k per teacher on pension contributions. Add in medical and other benefits, 3 months vacation, tenure, payroll taxes and the typical teacher is near there. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d16/tables/dt16_211.60.asp?current=yes https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d16/tables/dt16_211.60.a... The interesting thing about Arizona is that salaries - which aren't great - are trending downward.

megaman22 9y ago

Everybody I know who isn't completely saddled with student loan debt burns out of teaching in five to ten years and moves on to something else. Almost all the rest of them are just as burned out, their options are just more limited, for one reason or another.

vkou 9y ago
And yet, the teachers that taught me while I was a child (In BC) spent anywhere between 2 and 30 years on the job. What has changed? Why is teaching in America such a terrible job?
- stewartbutler 9y ago
  "No child left behind" and similar initiatives that lead to perverted incentives that the teachers bear the brunt of. Also low pay and no respect.
  - valuearb 9y ago
    Teachers are doing fine. Three months off a year, government level medical benefits, and lucrative pensions after only 25 years (sometimes only 20). Not to mention tenure. Schools are paying enough to not have any lack of candidates for open positions. Their real problem is to equate “teaching certificates’ and credentials with teaching ability.
    - vkou 9y ago
      > Teachers are doing fine. Great! > Three months off a year. This is like saying that ski instructors get nine months off a year. It's not paid leave.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]