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Should we adjust criminal justice or adjust wealth? What you describe is a well-known inequality that comes with being wealthy; bail is built for the 99%, and b

Should we adjust criminal justice or adjust wealth? What you describe is a well-known inequality that comes with being wealthy; bail is built for the 99%, and being rich is a good, unfair way to remain in control of such a situation. But is altering the impartiality of several elements of the criminal justice system to pursue the occasional unjust rich guy the right answer? I don’t know. Is there any country in the world that does bail that way? It seems like there could be a lot of unexpected drawbacks to such an approach, since on the other end it’s harder to justify a high bond for a destitute, transient murderer, for example. If you’re okay with $100 million for this guy, it follows that you’d also have to be okay with $10 for him. Otherwise justice is partial and biased, even more so than it is now. Ignoring net worth seems safer, but again, I don’t know.

mikeash 9y ago
It's not just about the 99% versus the 1%. There are tons of poor people stuck in jail awaiting trial because they can't pay a bail that middle-class people could afford. Many end up pleading guilty for a crime they didn't commit because it gets them out of jail faster than waiting for trial. Assuming that $10 is high enough to ensure that the destitute, transient murderer will show up for trial, why shouldn't I be OK with it?
- jsmthrowaway 9y ago
  I’m aware and do not need explanation, because I was one of them. I could not afford $80,000, even with a 10% bail bond, and I plead guilty to a crime I did commit to get out of jail faster (I was in about five months). I realize that it might be startling to hear me argue for the status quo having been in that very position. What you allege, that people happily plead out while innocent, does not happen. It just doesn’t, and it’s something I’ve heard repeated a lot by people who haven’t been inside. I was in a position to advise dozens of inmates on their cases during my time, and not once did that ever happen. The truly innocent folks (and it’s hard to tell) were happy to sit to get their day to prove it or wait for the charges to get dropped. I’ve seen inmates rip up a plea bargain and throw it in the prosecutor’s face after sitting in county three years. Inmates are not dumb cattle looking for the first door. They understand what signing a plea bargain does. Even beyond that, innocent people are almost never arrested in the first place. There are very, very, very few innocent people in jail. I hate to break it to you, because I know it undermines liberal sensitivity and view on the world (which I know because I’m liberal, I’m not critiquing). You’re also coming at this from the perspective that assumes everyone should be able to bail out, which isn’t true. Would you revisit total bail denials, too? Re: $10, how can you make that assumption? It’s disappointing that I’m being downvoted so heavily for pointing out that a seemingly minor change which is reactionary to one case could have implications far beyond intention. Being upset and changing things because of one billionaire is the very definition of mob-style reactionary grievance. There’s more to consider than just him, and I agree it sucks. This is a complicated issue and the easy engineering fix is very likely not the right one.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    "innocent people are almost never arrested in the first place" Oh, I see. Guess this conversation is pointless, then.
    - jsmthrowaway 9y ago
      It’s an important conversation to have and I was disputing your characterization that people routinely plead out when innocent, which is a tenuous claim and strongly argues for reform which perhaps we should be slower to adopt. It’s a key point. I’m trying to remain civil and substantive, and I wish you’d extend me the same courtesy. (Edit: I’m out of posting quota for today, but I at no point said what you’re claiming I’m trying to tell you in even the most uncharitable interpretation.)
      - mikeash 9y ago
        It's tough to do that when you throw such ridiculous statements at me. The felony conviction rate in the US is around 70%. That doesn't sound to me like "innocent people are almost never arrested in the first place." The rate of false convictions for people on death row is about 4%. That's for by far the most scrutinized cases out there. According to this article, it's believed that somewhere between 2% and 8% of convicted felons are innocent people who pled guilty: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2014/11/20/why-innocent-people-plead-guilty/ http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2014/11/20/why-innocent-peop... Maybe we have a disagreement over what number constitutes "almost never"? I'm trying to talk about the real problems bail causes in the justice system, and you're trying to tell me that it doesn't matter because basically everyone who gets arrested is guilty anyway. That's not substantive, and it's only superficially civil.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

mikeash 9y ago

It's not just about the 99% versus the 1%. There are tons of poor people stuck in jail awaiting trial because they can't pay a bail that middle-class people could afford. Many end up pleading guilty for a crime they didn't commit because it gets them out of jail faster than waiting for trial. Assuming that $10 is high enough to ensure that the destitute, transient murderer will show up for trial, why shouldn't I be OK with it?

jsmthrowaway 9y ago
I’m aware and do not need explanation, because I was one of them. I could not afford $80,000, even with a 10% bail bond, and I plead guilty to a crime I did commit to get out of jail faster (I was in about five months). I realize that it might be startling to hear me argue for the status quo having been in that very position. What you allege, that people happily plead out while innocent, does not happen. It just doesn’t, and it’s something I’ve heard repeated a lot by people who haven’t been inside. I was in a position to advise dozens of inmates on their cases during my time, and not once did that ever happen. The truly innocent folks (and it’s hard to tell) were happy to sit to get their day to prove it or wait for the charges to get dropped. I’ve seen inmates rip up a plea bargain and throw it in the prosecutor’s face after sitting in county three years. Inmates are not dumb cattle looking for the first door. They understand what signing a plea bargain does. Even beyond that, innocent people are almost never arrested in the first place. There are very, very, very few innocent people in jail. I hate to break it to you, because I know it undermines liberal sensitivity and view on the world (which I know because I’m liberal, I’m not critiquing). You’re also coming at this from the perspective that assumes everyone should be able to bail out, which isn’t true. Would you revisit total bail denials, too? Re: $10, how can you make that assumption? It’s disappointing that I’m being downvoted so heavily for pointing out that a seemingly minor change which is reactionary to one case could have implications far beyond intention. Being upset and changing things because of one billionaire is the very definition of mob-style reactionary grievance. There’s more to consider than just him, and I agree it sucks. This is a complicated issue and the easy engineering fix is very likely not the right one.
- mikeash 9y ago
  "innocent people are almost never arrested in the first place" Oh, I see. Guess this conversation is pointless, then.
  - jsmthrowaway 9y ago
    It’s an important conversation to have and I was disputing your characterization that people routinely plead out when innocent, which is a tenuous claim and strongly argues for reform which perhaps we should be slower to adopt. It’s a key point. I’m trying to remain civil and substantive, and I wish you’d extend me the same courtesy. (Edit: I’m out of posting quota for today, but I at no point said what you’re claiming I’m trying to tell you in even the most uncharitable interpretation.)
    - mikeash 9y ago
      It's tough to do that when you throw such ridiculous statements at me. The felony conviction rate in the US is around 70%. That doesn't sound to me like "innocent people are almost never arrested in the first place." The rate of false convictions for people on death row is about 4%. That's for by far the most scrutinized cases out there. According to this article, it's believed that somewhere between 2% and 8% of convicted felons are innocent people who pled guilty: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2014/11/20/why-innocent-people-plead-guilty/ http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2014/11/20/why-innocent-peop... Maybe we have a disagreement over what number constitutes "almost never"? I'm trying to talk about the real problems bail causes in the justice system, and you're trying to tell me that it doesn't matter because basically everyone who gets arrested is guilty anyway. That's not substantive, and it's only superficially civil.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]