4 ms·

To those who are commenting that they are happily employed at an older age - I'd say, good for you. But for god's sake stop judging those that are less fortuna

To those who are commenting that they are happily employed at an older age - I'd say, good for you. But for god's sake stop judging those that are less fortunate than you. For example by saying that that are not learning new things. Nearly all older developer are capable and generally are willing to learn new things on a job, is my observation. They may just not be up to learning those 50 new buzzwordy things _before_ they get a job. I mean the general tone of advice seems to be: learn new things, have a great attitude, be positive, keep trying etc. What's new may I ask?

combatentropy 9y ago
Some of what I'm seeing isn't "try harder" but "look elsewhere." Youth may be prized at start-ups and white-hot companies like Google. But most computer jobs are at companies that aren't about computers: banks, hospitals, schools, etc. There is no shortage of gray-haired people at my job. My sysadmin just retired. This was a sad day for me, which brings me to my other point: it's dumb to prefer youth over experience among programmers. Programming is a design job, not grunt work, as Martin Fowler said (https://www.martinfowler.com/articles/newMethodology.html#SeparationOfDesignAndConstruction https://www.martinfowler.com/articles/newMethodology.html#Se...). Designers get better with age. Would you rather have Frank Lloyd Wright in his 20s or 60s?
- dennis_jeeves 9y ago
  >Some of what I'm seeing isn't "try harder" but "look elsewhere." Fair enough. But where? >There is no shortage of gray-haired people at my job. My sysadmin just retired. This was a sad day for me, which brings me to my other point: it's dumb to prefer youth over experience among programmers. List your company here. It might help somebody.
  - brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
    Yes, please do.
- brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
  This is the key point, "Would you rather have Frank Lloyd Wright in his 20s or 60s?". They aren't looking for designers/artists/masters. This is the big reveal you have hit upon. If they were, age would not matter or might even be prized. It isn't about skill or style or mastery or speed or experience-- it is about something else.
petsormeat 9y ago
+1 to this. I'm in my fifties. I advance rapidly in the interview process...until the Skype or in-person encounter, when I'm revealed to be twice the age of the "senior" developer talking with me. I weathered the dot-com bust; it's the current hiring regimen of proving competence in this month's buzzword that will drive me out of technology entirely. And nothing is more maddening than hearing about a "developer shortage" or complaints about "how hard it is to hire."
- cutler 9y ago
  Yes, the "developer shortage" is maddening. I've railed at a few recruiters when they come out with this one. Many companies I've come across would rather go without a hire for months than take a chance on anyone less than "senior". Tech hiring is more like a talent show than a real profession.
gdilla 9y ago
Learn new things, sure. If you're a company willing to hire someone with aptitude to learn, might as well hire younger only because they're generally much cheaper. To you, and any experienced person I know, I say, jobs and opportunities come from your network - the who you know, not necessarily what you know. People who've worked with you in the past (assuming they liked what you did), are the best source of opportunities. Yes, it may entail doing things you may not like, like networking, coffee, etc, but the ROI is pretty decent compared to talking to recruiters who have no idea what Java8 is and how fast you could pick it up.
- brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
  And this is the problem with ageism. People in your network age right along with you.
brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
Another +1 to this! If anyone over 35, or (shiver) over 40 here has had to look for a job in tech after a period of unemployment due to this "culture fit" nonsense and faux downsizing, they would know that applying to and preparing for engineering interviews these days is a full time, olympic-level sporting event requiring generous reserves of money, perfect physical health and time. One doesn't doubt one's skill at white boarding, but getting invited to the on-site is the real trick after someone sees your face in a visual tech hangout that you nail to the wall with your updated skills and well-honed coding ability (showing a few smile lines). One can't keep in shape for these increasingly grueling, multiple white boarding inquisitions, apply to every opportunity one qualifies for, make side projects for zero pay, and learn every new technology that comes out while still having time and energy to eat and sleep and remain a sane human without the help of a cleaning staff (a parent?) or a private investor (another parent?). And think of those who are well-trained and looking for their first job in tech having come from another technical skill-valuing industry (higher education, the arts, the law, medicine) in which they have already distinguished themselves? The jobs in these fields are drying up, so people are leaving these sectors and taking that athletic step to reeducate themselves. These are not lazy oldsters, but brave folks who believe they can learn anything new and double-prove they can only to be turned away because of their age. Then there is this "positivity" culture in tech that grinds anyone of any age. It's just that the older you get, the more you begin to recognize it for what it actually is: a method through which to enforce an outwardly happy compliance with an environment that is needlessly grueling and sometimes even abusive. It is designed to bully you into submission with conditions that are unhealthy. "If you can't remain positive, well, then you are out!" is the loud-and-clear on that one.
- brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
  And when you do get to the on-site, you may be met with (as I have and few others I've known have and some on HN have mentioned) a junior interviewer who isn't prepared to understand that they don't understand the problem maybe or its optimal solution, and that they are making a coding error, not matter how generously/graciously you put it. And then you have to allow them to come back to you and apologize for their error (which is fine- everyone is always learning, and no one has to be perfect!) after which they proceed to not hire you and hire a younger, less experienced programmer for the job. So yeah, ageism.

combatentropy 9y ago

Some of what I'm seeing isn't "try harder" but "look elsewhere." Youth may be prized at start-ups and white-hot companies like Google. But most computer jobs are at companies that aren't about computers: banks, hospitals, schools, etc. There is no shortage of gray-haired people at my job. My sysadmin just retired. This was a sad day for me, which brings me to my other point: it's dumb to prefer youth over experience among programmers. Programming is a design job, not grunt work, as Martin Fowler said (https://www.martinfowler.com/articles/newMethodology.html#SeparationOfDesignAndConstruction https://www.martinfowler.com/articles/newMethodology.html#Se...). Designers get better with age. Would you rather have Frank Lloyd Wright in his 20s or 60s?

dennis_jeeves 9y ago
>Some of what I'm seeing isn't "try harder" but "look elsewhere." Fair enough. But where? >There is no shortage of gray-haired people at my job. My sysadmin just retired. This was a sad day for me, which brings me to my other point: it's dumb to prefer youth over experience among programmers. List your company here. It might help somebody.
- brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
  Yes, please do.
brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
This is the key point, "Would you rather have Frank Lloyd Wright in his 20s or 60s?". They aren't looking for designers/artists/masters. This is the big reveal you have hit upon. If they were, age would not matter or might even be prized. It isn't about skill or style or mastery or speed or experience-- it is about something else.

petsormeat 9y ago

+1 to this. I'm in my fifties. I advance rapidly in the interview process...until the Skype or in-person encounter, when I'm revealed to be twice the age of the "senior" developer talking with me. I weathered the dot-com bust; it's the current hiring regimen of proving competence in this month's buzzword that will drive me out of technology entirely. And nothing is more maddening than hearing about a "developer shortage" or complaints about "how hard it is to hire."

cutler 9y ago
Yes, the "developer shortage" is maddening. I've railed at a few recruiters when they come out with this one. Many companies I've come across would rather go without a hire for months than take a chance on anyone less than "senior". Tech hiring is more like a talent show than a real profession.

gdilla 9y ago

Learn new things, sure. If you're a company willing to hire someone with aptitude to learn, might as well hire younger only because they're generally much cheaper. To you, and any experienced person I know, I say, jobs and opportunities come from your network - the who you know, not necessarily what you know. People who've worked with you in the past (assuming they liked what you did), are the best source of opportunities. Yes, it may entail doing things you may not like, like networking, coffee, etc, but the ROI is pretty decent compared to talking to recruiters who have no idea what Java8 is and how fast you could pick it up.

brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
And this is the problem with ageism. People in your network age right along with you.

brooklyn_ashey 9y ago

Another +1 to this! If anyone over 35, or (shiver) over 40 here has had to look for a job in tech after a period of unemployment due to this "culture fit" nonsense and faux downsizing, they would know that applying to and preparing for engineering interviews these days is a full time, olympic-level sporting event requiring generous reserves of money, perfect physical health and time. One doesn't doubt one's skill at white boarding, but getting invited to the on-site is the real trick after someone sees your face in a visual tech hangout that you nail to the wall with your updated skills and well-honed coding ability (showing a few smile lines). One can't keep in shape for these increasingly grueling, multiple white boarding inquisitions, apply to every opportunity one qualifies for, make side projects for zero pay, and learn every new technology that comes out while still having time and energy to eat and sleep and remain a sane human without the help of a cleaning staff (a parent?) or a private investor (another parent?). And think of those who are well-trained and looking for their first job in tech having come from another technical skill-valuing industry (higher education, the arts, the law, medicine) in which they have already distinguished themselves? The jobs in these fields are drying up, so people are leaving these sectors and taking that athletic step to reeducate themselves. These are not lazy oldsters, but brave folks who believe they can learn anything new and double-prove they can only to be turned away because of their age. Then there is this "positivity" culture in tech that grinds anyone of any age. It's just that the older you get, the more you begin to recognize it for what it actually is: a method through which to enforce an outwardly happy compliance with an environment that is needlessly grueling and sometimes even abusive. It is designed to bully you into submission with conditions that are unhealthy. "If you can't remain positive, well, then you are out!" is the loud-and-clear on that one.

brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
And when you do get to the on-site, you may be met with (as I have and few others I've known have and some on HN have mentioned) a junior interviewer who isn't prepared to understand that they don't understand the problem maybe or its optimal solution, and that they are making a coding error, not matter how generously/graciously you put it. And then you have to allow them to come back to you and apologize for their error (which is fine- everyone is always learning, and no one has to be perfect!) after which they proceed to not hire you and hire a younger, less experienced programmer for the job. So yeah, ageism.