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When did the golden age of The Simpsons end?
- hk__2 9y agoI find this HN story title misleading (or clickbait-y): "Cluster analysis" is just a tool; it doesn’t show anything by itself. You can do bad and good cluster analysis, and you can probably "show" anything you want from it. Excerpt from the blog post that explains the methodology: > … we could consider performing cluster analysis on the data, essentially finding a way of grouping the episodes so that those with similar ratings are placed in groups together. A standard clustering approach would just group good episodes and bad episodes. However, I want to alter this slightly in that I only want a group to be made up of a single contiguous group of episodes; basically, if the episodes of season 4 are in the same group as the episodes of season 6, then the episodes of season 5 must also be in that group.
- miiiiiike 9y agoThe title is from BoingBoing. I think it’s fine, but I also have no problem with a mod changing it. https://boingboing.net/2017/10/28/cluster-analysis-shows-that-th.html https://boingboing.net/2017/10/28/cluster-analysis-shows-tha...
- sctb 9y agoOK, we've changed it to the original from “Cluster analysis shows that the golden age of the Simpsons ended in Season 10”.
- SirFatty 9y agoI agree with what you are saying, but the conclusion is still accurate.
- nerdponx 9y agoI find this HN story title misleading (or clickbait-y): <popular programming language> is just a tool; it doesn’t implement anything by itself. You can write bad and good programs in <popular programming language>, and you can probably implement anything you want from it. How silly does that sound? Part of the explicit appeal of these kinda of articles is a toy demonstration of the tool or technique mentioned in the title.
- hk__2 9y agoIt sounds silly if you remove the context, i.e. the title I was refering to. An analogy with a programming language would be “Python shows that the golden age of the Simpsons ended in Season 10”.
- hacker_9 9y agoAnecdotally, I never watch the show anymore. Doesn't stop it always seeming to be on though when I'm channel flicking.
- keganunderwood 9y agoI still have great respect for the Simpsons. I think future American TV history will have a special place for the Simpsons.
- 88e282102ae2e5b 9y agoPersonally, If I were picking the assumptions and hyperparameters, I'd end up with the golden age being seasons 3 through 8 :)
- consentfactory 9y agoThose were the halcyon days of the Simpsons.
- g00gler 9y agoI was surprised to learn that everyone hated the Principal and the Pauper, I loved that episode.
- mattacular 9y agoIt’s not that the episode itself is all that bad in and of itself. Fans think of it as a turning point in tone (changing the long time Skinner character). Think of it as the beginning of the very long and steep decline.
- slipstream- 9y agoSame.
- raverbashing 9y agoIt might be a good episode, but it's bad in the context of the whole story arch
- temprature 9y agoI enjoyed it retroactively because it set up this continuity gag a few seasons later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rxdhKRODLw#t=59s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rxdhKRODLw#t=59s
- jerf 9y agoI don't hate the episode, but even despite my contrarianism I have to admit I've been brought around to agree that it was a very bad episode for the universe even if it was an OK episode internally. It's easy to forget if you are young and you've never lived in a world where Simpson's seasons 1-7 or so are all there was in the world, but the Simpson's used to actually have a universe, rules, characters that were more than walking stereotypes, and even a bit of capacity for lasting consequences, and thus, a capacity for drama that the modern "cartoony" (in the bad sense) version has a very hard time sustaining. If you were raised in the modern era, you can get the reverse effect that some of us oldster's describe by going back and watching Season 1 in order. It is not the best season, but it was already showing a lot of the promise that would manifest a couple of seasons later, and in so many ways you'll find it is just a different show, even more clearly than if you go a couple of seasons later. (And it does have my favorite Halloween episode. I have to admit I haven't seen them all, and there were certainly some other good ones, but when it comes down to it, it is hard to beat a dramatic reading of The Raven. There's a reason this became a tradition and not just a one-off.)
- nsxwolf 9y agoSomeone on HN once commented that watching later seasons of The Simpsons is like visiting a loved one with advanced Alzheimer’s disease. This rings true to me. It looks like them, but isn’t them. They occasionally have a flash of lucidity where they are back to their old selves but then that moment is gone as quickly as it came.
- foolfoolz 9y agoif you haven't seen A Fathers Watch s28e17 I highly recommend t. it is as good or batter than any "classic" Simpsons. I think a good amount of Simpsons hate is nostalgia based, but the primary component is the writers. the writing of episodes like a fathers watch follows an almost Seinfeld-like formula. the best episodes always had a similar pattern.the pattern is great but gets repetitive and works best on nostalgia where you don't remember it i can sympathize with a show on for 30 years wanting to switch up that formula even if it is less successful all the time.
- lobut 9y agoI think nostalgia-based makes sense ... but I just decided to watch later Simpson episodes and their jokes just suck. I watched a few episodes and didn't laugh once. The video everyone is referencing in this thread has an example of the possible "pattern" that you reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqFNbCcyFkk&feature=youtu.be&t=20m51s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqFNbCcyFkk&feature=youtu.be...
- icebraining 9y agoI just watched that episode, and it was just depressing. The jokes were completely predictable (the frogs in particular were cringe worthy) and the culture criticism sounds like a bad rehash of a George Carlin sketch - and he's been dead for a decade. By the way, I only started watching the Simpsons regularly when they were on season 15, when Fox opened up a channel in my country, so I saw the old and the new episodes at the same age. I still saw a tremendous difference, and would in fact often change the channel during the new ones.
- TheCondor 9y ago
- superJoy 9y agoI collected Simpsons season DVDs until I lost interest... last one I purchased is season 14. So there's a data point on when I had (re)seen enough of the show (Although, I've seen S15-22 or so completely, sporadic watcher since then). I think season 10 is a fair cutoff point. The jarring thing about the more recent episodes is the decline of Julie Kavner's (Marge's) voice. It sounds...weak. Unhealthy. Other actors on the show have a similar problem but hers is most notable.
- bamboozled 9y agoThere was definitely a few seasons (probably 4), I watched hoping and anticipating it would get better ;)
- throwanem 9y ago> The decline was much like Fox News’ transition to a hardcore sex channel When did that happen? Granted I haven't paid close attention in a while, but that still seems a surprising departure, to say the least. What have I missed?
- paulpauper 9y agoHmm but can you really tell how good an episode is by ratings?
- twoodfin 9y agoThese are IMDB ratings, not viewership ratings.
- paulpauper 9y agoI think it's time for it to be cancelled but It's still a money-maker i guess
- gm-conspiracy 9y agoCould this not be better achieved by using/augmenting with writer credits?
- dmitriid 9y agoFor an actual exploration of what happened, I highly recommend this video. The Fall of The Simpsons: How it Happened https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqFNbCcyFkk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqFNbCcyFkk
- SmellTheGlove 9y agoWhen I was younger, we always talked about being able to pick what we watched - what we wanted, when we wanted. The Simpsons being our favorite show, it was pretty natural that we just wanted to watch that all day. Anyhow, years later adult me sought to realize that dream, via Plex and Simpsons DVDs on Ebay. I have Seasons 1-14, but Season 12 is really the end of it. The great stuff was probably Seasons 3-9, with Season 6 being my absolute favorite. Yeah I know the article is about actual analysis on this, but screw it, I wanted to talk about The Simpsons!
- tombert 9y agoI can't speak for anyone else, but I feel around season 12 is when it started getting really annoying with the celebrity cameos. The NSYNC episode was so horrendous that it actually made me stop watching with regularity, and it felt like after that too many episodes were just means in which to showcase some celebrity (e.g The Rolling Stones, Tony Hawk, Weird Al).
- da_chicken 9y agoSomewhere between Armin Tamzarian, the first season of South Park, the first season of Futurama, and the first season of Family Guy. The Silver Age ended when The Simpson's Movie came out. Almost no animated series survives the first movie intact.
- Finnucane 9y agoThe big screen is where TV shows go to die. It’s a kind of admission that your idea is played out in it’s native format.
- brudgers 9y agoMy favorite take on "The Decline and Fall of the Simpsons Empire": The Fall of the Simpsons https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqFNbCcyFkk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqFNbCcyFkk
- artificial 9y agoYes, this is excellent. I highly recommend watching this if you’re interested.
- criley2 9y agoHah, I thought this was "why", so I looked into it. His "end of the Golden Era": Wild Barts can't be Broken: Jan 17, 1999 Futurama, debut: March 28, 1999 So there's your why...
- brownbat 9y agoThere is a video with great analysis on this. Ultimately argues that Simpsons was a great piece of counter culture, then it just won and became culture, losing its ability to skewer mainstream comedy. Along with an upheaval in the writer's room, it just went absurd all the time. That's a sometimes brilliant move, but dull when used in place of any substance. It also forgot how to stay true to its characters. Much more here: https://youtu.be/KqFNbCcyFkk https://youtu.be/KqFNbCcyFkk
- yupyup 9y agoSuper Eyepatch Wolf is a great anime review channel. I have started following some series after watching his reviews.
- walls 9y ago> Ultimately argues that Simpsons was a great piece of counter culture, then it just won and became culture, losing its ability to skewer mainstream comedy. I feel like South Park has managed to do both.
- eof 9y agoSeems to be South Park is having a bit of a renaissance.
- ahartmetz 9y agoIt seemed to jump the shark around season 6 (IIRC) when they just turned up the grossness, but became better than ever after that and more or less stayed there.
- Retric 9y agoSouth Park and Simpsons both suffer from their own past glory. Where exactly do you go next year after woodland criter Christmas?https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodland_Critter_Christmas https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodland_Critter_Christmas Really, even in off seasons they often have great episodes, they simply suffer by comparison.
- b3b0p 9y agoI still enjoy The Simpson's ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It is obvious I'm in the minority. I don't know what people expect from the show, especially for how long it's Been on the air consistently, but for what it is, I love it. It's one of the few, actually maybe only show I look forward to. If you haven't you should listen to The Talking Simpson's [0]. I love this podcast! Also, if you have a cable subscription you can watch every episode on The Simpson's World website [1] (it is pretty terrible to navigate and extremely buggy though). If The Simpson's was canceled or when, it feels like at this point it would be a pretty big deal, especially for those of us who grew up on it. Like a hell has frozen over moment. Mind boggling to put it. It's a part of our culture. [0] http://www.lasertimepodcast.com/category/talking-simpsons/ http://www.lasertimepodcast.com/category/talking-simpsons/ [1] http://www.simpsonsworld.com http://www.simpsonsworld.com
- valuearb 9y agoWe own every season through itunes. It’s still good. Complaints of its decline are like like complaints of the decline of SNL. There are good seasons and not so good seasons, and it ebbs and flows with new writers.
- chillwaves 9y agoSNL is a sketch comedy show where Simpsons has a consistent cast. The characters used to be real and relatable but now have more in common with an SNL type sketch comedy show with no expressed identities.
- coverband 9y agoThe quality of the show still depends the writing. Plus, animated characters can take on every imaginable role (as Homer’s multitude of jobs show).
- valuearb 9y agoYea, the stories and characters depend on the writing and writers change over time. No one looks back to Conan O’Brian leaving as the end, Groening et al just hired a replacement.
- tribby 9y agothe last truly great episode of the simpsons was season 9, episode 21, "girly edition," but its rapid decline began in season 8.
- ashark 9y agohttps://deadhomersociety.com/zombiesimpsons/ https://deadhomersociety.com/zombiesimpsons/ TL;DR a loss of writers and voice talent from resignations and deaths combined (probably) with the show simply running out of things to say (especially as its irreverent tone took over culture; see also: DFW’s writings on TV) led to its 1) becoming exactly the thing it was originally skewering, 2) relying too much on the “homer gets a new job” gimmick, 3) shifting homer’s Characterization significantly, and not for the better, and 4) spending an awful lot more time subjecting homer to cartoon violence. Decline is foreshadowed in S7, proceeds rapidly from there, and the show’s wholly a shell of itself (a “zombie”) past S12. Site argues its case pretty well, worth a read.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- mrweasel 9y agoThe Simpsons suffer from a problem that's rather unique to US TV shows, and I admit this may not be completely fair, given how large a percentage of popular shows are American: When a US TV show turns out to be popular it will be milked to death. Producers will keep popular shows alive for much longer than they should, because they know a large percentage of fans will watch every new show, regardless of quality. The Simpsons had a good run, it's time to cancel it. If it's true that it peeked at season 10, then the most of the shows are produced after it's peek.
- jacobkg 9y agoThis makes it even more incredible that Seinfeld ended its run after 9 seasons at the height of its popularity. Jerry Seinfeld reportedly turned down $100 million dollars to make another season
- tritium 9y agoThe Guatemalan Insanity Pepper episode was the first “bad” episode to signal decline in quality, after which good episodes were absent, if not extremely rare.
- pavel_lishin 9y agoReally? I remember it fondly. It went from funny, to sad, to fulfilling in what felt like a good pace.
- tritium 9y agoThere were a couple of violations in that episode that I remember instinctively grasping when I originally watched it as a new episode when it first aired. I had been eagerly anticipating the episode, based on station promo spots that had teasers about the episode, and I really thought it was going to be a really good episode. It was obvious that some extra effort was put into the animation, I had anticipated solid writing to match. It looked like it was going to be on par with a good Treehouse of Horror episode. Instead, it turned out to be fluff. Only the trippy animation got attention, and the entire episode is built around the trippy shots. The episode lines up what might be considered the first “jerk ass” Homer incident, such that Homer eats this MacGuffin chili pepper, apropos of nothing, and why? There is no reason. It doesn’t build his character. It doesn’t reveal or change anything about Homer. And he’s the centerpiece of the whole episode, the other characters don’t figure into the plot very much, other than as sentimental plush toys. He just does it. Why is he at the chili cook off? No real reason. So the answer is: because they (the staff) wanted to do a trippy vision quest desert sequence. And that’s it. No other alignment with the Simpsons universe. It’s just Homer trips out in the desert. Everything else is window dressing. Any tugs on the heartstrings, and appearances by the rest of the cast. The spirit animal becomes nothing, and is never seen again, in any other episode that mattered. And so, then we have the principal violation of Homer doing drugs, and the ancillary violation of Homer “doing drugs” without actually doing drugs. The pepper is a stand-in for hallucinogenic drugs, obviously. And here we have homer trying the pepper, but for dishonest reasons. He didn’t set out to trip balls in the desert, and his character is unaware of this outcome a priori, conserving a moralistic aspect of Homer, the family man, even though, we, beyond the fourth wall, know better. So they do this episode once, and without any explanation, or impact on continuity, and the jokes aren’t even that great. The episode isn’t very quotable, and has nothing else going for it, aside from the animation, which everyone does remember. So, at the time, everyone said they loved this episode, but really the episode sucked, and rewatchng it decades later, it still sucks. But people remember the animation, and The Simpsons is animated, so surely this must be a “good” Simpsons episode. But it’s not. At the time, I remember a subliminal inkling that if this episode passed muster, then more bad episodes were on the way, and I was right. The Poochie episode aired soon after, and I remember watching it at the time, and thinking to myself: “message received, this show isn’t going to be good anymore, don’t expect much else going forward... “ and it seems that was interpretted correctly.
- bayonetz 9y agoI felt Simpsons lost it by S7. When other shows lost their magic: Southpark - S5 It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia - S6 Arrested Development - "S4" Deadwood - ended before its time! New Girl - S3 Big Love - S3 GoT - S7 Friends - S6 Office - S7 Workaholics - S4 The League -S4 My baseline seems to be around 5 +- 2 seasons. Saw another poster say same. Similar dynamics apply in any creative job -- the writers can get bored and complacent, early success leads to staff getting lured away, etc. Must make it extremely hard to maintain quality.
- avar 9y agoIs there some website where you can see a good visualization of IMDB or other ratings across seasons/episodes like that for any show?
- jayd16 9y agoWhen Phil Hartman died. This was my personal intuition but it fits the data. The death was in May 98. The episode given as the turning point was Jan 99.
- gciruelos 9y agoi wish the main tool wasn't inside an <iframe>. completely unnecessary
- trumpisyourdad 9y ago~20 years ago. /thread
- blacksqr 9y agoThey were great when they were part of the Tracy Ullman Show. All downhill from there.