6 ms·

> "niggle" is troubling and slightly outdated, especially if you look up it's etymology. Could you expand on this? I can't find anything other than it dating t

by nfg 16y ago

> "niggle" is troubling and slightly outdated, especially if you look up it's etymology. Could you expand on this? I can't find anything other than it dating to the 1500/1600s, probably from Norwegian "Nigla" (to be penurious) or cognate with "Niggardly". As with "niggardly" I don't think there's any racial connotation to the term other than its sound?

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
htsh 16y ago
The word "niggardly" and it's cognates are not preferred language not just due to their phonetic similarity to a word which unfortunately has awful connotation, but also because sophomoric racists have unfortunately appropriated these terms to have this sort of racial meaning. I should have said "recent etymology" above. For this reason, magazines and newspapers avoid the term: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_%22niggardly%22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_%2... (see the bottom) I might be dating myself here, but "niggardly" and "niggle" used to be used quite often to imply racial meaning even if none technically exists. Perhaps we shouldn't avoid the term just b/c some ignorant folks used them in racist ways, but in this case I don't see the harm in avoiding it considering there are so many other ways to say the same thing. Unfortunately, once racists use these words to mean something other than their dictionary definitions, you run the risk of raising eyebrows amongst people who may have experienced these terms in these secondary contexts. In England, this is likely a different story. And would you really use "niggardly" to describe something in America in 2010? Really?
- confuzatron 16y ago
  It just blows my mind that there exist people who would discourage the use of the word 'niggle' because of the fact that it is etymologically related to a word that sounds a bit like a derogatory term.
  - htsh 16y ago
    But you're ignoring the part about people using it in racist ways already. That's the rub here: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=niggle http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=niggle
    - confuzatron 16y ago
      Urbandictionary! A palpable hit! I retire from the field of combat...
      - htsh 16y ago
        Out of the 15 definitions, 5 of them are extremely racist. Do you really doubt that American people have used the word "niggle" in various racist ways and that I have heard it used in these ways? I don't know what else to tell you, but some of these words have ugly histories outside of their dictionary definitions. I cited urbandictionary precisely b/c it's the best resource to illustrate to someone unfamiliar with street usage of some of these words. There's really no harm in avoiding it. It strikes me odd that people downvote this sort of thing, but it makes me happy that many folks here have never been exposed to this sort of nastiness.
        confuzatron 16y ago
        I would appreciate it if you would stop requesting people to not use a harmless word just because there are morons in the US who misuse it. I find it extremely offensive. Also, stop using the word 'black' please. Some of the definitions of that word on urbandictionary are racist, so therefore according to your laughable criteria the word is off limits. If people start using the word 'salad' in a racist way, do we have to stop using it? You have to be trolling. I'm too flabbergasted to continue this discussion.
        htsh 16y ago
        I never requested anyone stop using any word. I said I found the word troubling for what racists have done with it and that I avoid it (and that many magazines and newspapers do the same). Most offensive words are only such because morons use them as such. If you like it, use it. But don't get offended because someone shows you that people are doing this. To be clear, you're getting offended that I'm "troubled" by the usage of a word which is being used by racists to describe African American babies. And again I didn't ask people to stop using it. I just said it's troubling due to what some folks have done with it. Nothing you or I say here changes the fact that racists are still (mis)using the word and that there's a controversy around it now. I like that at least we agree that these people doing this are ignorant morons. And since this is off topic here, if you want to continue this conversation via email, I'd be happy to do so.
- p01nd3xt3r 16y ago
  The fact that you got down voted and he has 12 up votes (currently) has really kind of changed how I see the hacker news community. Socially I always knew i didn't "fit in" with the people on this site but the one thing that connected us all was learning about technology and a love for sharing what we learn. Because of that I thought that there was enough general respect amongst us all not to use a word like "niggle" or "niggardly" and certainly not to defend it's use. I know you all wont agree with me but lets be honest for a minute; I am a black male and if you were in a conversation with me face to face you would not use that term because if you did we would have a problem.
  - htsh 16y ago
    Yeah, same sort of amazement here that people are upset at me for pointing out the controversy (and that you're getting down-voted as well). I am a brown male who grew up in Jamaica, Queens and then New Jersey and saw a lot of interesting mixtures of culture growing up. It was mostly good but I realize that I've seen more racism up close than most of my friends. I honestly don't blame them though -- they are right by the books and I understand this stance if you've never seen or experienced the words used in that way. Though the definition has nothing to do with race, but once you know racists have associated the two, what I don't get is why would you get upset at the person that tells you and shows you that racists are doing this? Check out the dude below -- he's all worked up and offended that I pointed out that people are doing this. And he's offended at me for saying it's troubling and wise to steer clear of that mess. At least he agrees that they are morons. And yeah this is definitely a bit disturbing. I don't think it's outlandish at all to avoid certain language once racists start using it to hurt people. If he's fine using word that we've experienced racists use to describe African American babies, that's his call. I don't understand why anyone would be offended or flabbergasted that the word itself has some controversy around it. It's not like there aren't other words to use.
    - confuzatron 16y ago
      * Check out the dude below -- he says he's actually offended that I pointed this out* You're right. Being offended by words is absurd. Doubly-so when they are not even uttered with an offensive meaning. This may be too subtle, so I'll clarify: I was taking the piss out of your position.

by nfg 16y ago

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

htsh 16y ago

The word "niggardly" and it's cognates are not preferred language not just due to their phonetic similarity to a word which unfortunately has awful connotation, but also because sophomoric racists have unfortunately appropriated these terms to have this sort of racial meaning. I should have said "recent etymology" above. For this reason, magazines and newspapers avoid the term: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_%22niggardly%22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_%2... (see the bottom) I might be dating myself here, but "niggardly" and "niggle" used to be used quite often to imply racial meaning even if none technically exists. Perhaps we shouldn't avoid the term just b/c some ignorant folks used them in racist ways, but in this case I don't see the harm in avoiding it considering there are so many other ways to say the same thing. Unfortunately, once racists use these words to mean something other than their dictionary definitions, you run the risk of raising eyebrows amongst people who may have experienced these terms in these secondary contexts. In England, this is likely a different story. And would you really use "niggardly" to describe something in America in 2010? Really?

confuzatron 16y ago
It just blows my mind that there exist people who would discourage the use of the word 'niggle' because of the fact that it is etymologically related to a word that sounds a bit like a derogatory term.
- htsh 16y ago
  But you're ignoring the part about people using it in racist ways already. That's the rub here: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=niggle http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=niggle
  - confuzatron 16y ago
    Urbandictionary! A palpable hit! I retire from the field of combat...
    - htsh 16y ago
      Out of the 15 definitions, 5 of them are extremely racist. Do you really doubt that American people have used the word "niggle" in various racist ways and that I have heard it used in these ways? I don't know what else to tell you, but some of these words have ugly histories outside of their dictionary definitions. I cited urbandictionary precisely b/c it's the best resource to illustrate to someone unfamiliar with street usage of some of these words. There's really no harm in avoiding it. It strikes me odd that people downvote this sort of thing, but it makes me happy that many folks here have never been exposed to this sort of nastiness.
      - confuzatron 16y ago
        I would appreciate it if you would stop requesting people to not use a harmless word just because there are morons in the US who misuse it. I find it extremely offensive. Also, stop using the word 'black' please. Some of the definitions of that word on urbandictionary are racist, so therefore according to your laughable criteria the word is off limits. If people start using the word 'salad' in a racist way, do we have to stop using it? You have to be trolling. I'm too flabbergasted to continue this discussion.
        htsh 16y ago
        I never requested anyone stop using any word. I said I found the word troubling for what racists have done with it and that I avoid it (and that many magazines and newspapers do the same). Most offensive words are only such because morons use them as such. If you like it, use it. But don't get offended because someone shows you that people are doing this. To be clear, you're getting offended that I'm "troubled" by the usage of a word which is being used by racists to describe African American babies. And again I didn't ask people to stop using it. I just said it's troubling due to what some folks have done with it. Nothing you or I say here changes the fact that racists are still (mis)using the word and that there's a controversy around it now. I like that at least we agree that these people doing this are ignorant morons. And since this is off topic here, if you want to continue this conversation via email, I'd be happy to do so.
p01nd3xt3r 16y ago
The fact that you got down voted and he has 12 up votes (currently) has really kind of changed how I see the hacker news community. Socially I always knew i didn't "fit in" with the people on this site but the one thing that connected us all was learning about technology and a love for sharing what we learn. Because of that I thought that there was enough general respect amongst us all not to use a word like "niggle" or "niggardly" and certainly not to defend it's use. I know you all wont agree with me but lets be honest for a minute; I am a black male and if you were in a conversation with me face to face you would not use that term because if you did we would have a problem.
- htsh 16y ago
  Yeah, same sort of amazement here that people are upset at me for pointing out the controversy (and that you're getting down-voted as well). I am a brown male who grew up in Jamaica, Queens and then New Jersey and saw a lot of interesting mixtures of culture growing up. It was mostly good but I realize that I've seen more racism up close than most of my friends. I honestly don't blame them though -- they are right by the books and I understand this stance if you've never seen or experienced the words used in that way. Though the definition has nothing to do with race, but once you know racists have associated the two, what I don't get is why would you get upset at the person that tells you and shows you that racists are doing this? Check out the dude below -- he's all worked up and offended that I pointed out that people are doing this. And he's offended at me for saying it's troubling and wise to steer clear of that mess. At least he agrees that they are morons. And yeah this is definitely a bit disturbing. I don't think it's outlandish at all to avoid certain language once racists start using it to hurt people. If he's fine using word that we've experienced racists use to describe African American babies, that's his call. I don't understand why anyone would be offended or flabbergasted that the word itself has some controversy around it. It's not like there aren't other words to use.
  - confuzatron 16y ago
    * Check out the dude below -- he says he's actually offended that I pointed this out* You're right. Being offended by words is absurd. Doubly-so when they are not even uttered with an offensive meaning. This may be too subtle, so I'll clarify: I was taking the piss out of your position.