4 ms·

They aren't counted because basically they're forced savings. Typically everything you put into SS you'll get back. Lower income folks end up getting more back

They aren't counted because basically they're forced savings. Typically everything you put into SS you'll get back. Lower income folks end up getting more back than they put in. And the same for Medicare. It's a forced insurance payment of sorts.

r00fus 9y ago
Not while the general fund is allowed to steal from SS and then declare it as "debt". The vast majority of the US debt is owed to SS recipients.
- wpietri 9y ago
  Are you sure? From what I can tell, it's not close. Total debt is $19.4T; intergovernmental debt is $5.4T: https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/mspd/2016/opds062016.pdf https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/mspd/2016/opd... And given that the total trust fund appears to be $2.8T, I'm not sure how it could hold the majority of the debt: https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_oldage_and_survivors_insurance_trust_fund_assets_at_end_of_year https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_oldage_and_survivors_insur...
  - r00fus 9y ago
    Who owns the US Nation Debt [1]. I stand corrected, the vast majority is owed not just to Social Security, but to retirees in general (though SS is the largest debt holder). [1] https://www.thebalance.com/who-owns-the-u-s-national-debt-3306124 https://www.thebalance.com/who-owns-the-u-s-national-debt-33...
    - wpietri 9y ago
      Again, I would like you to show your numbers, because I am not seeing the vast majority being owed to retirees, either.
Steko 9y ago
No, the truth is they aren't counted because correctly counting them would undermine the bullshit conclusion they're pushing.
- ovao 9y ago
  To count Social Security and Medicare withholding as part of federal income taxes would be incorrect, as neither are income taxes (they are payroll taxes.) I think to correctly frame what proportion any income group (or wealth group) pays, you have to look not just as federal income taxes, but at all taxes.
  - Steko 9y ago
    I think you are arguing past me on the first part. They are "payroll taxes", yes. And there is a "US federal income tax" of which they are not, yes. Technically they do also fit the definition of what an income tax is (wikt:"A tax levied on earned and unearned income"; wikipedia "Retirement oriented taxes, such as Social Security or national insurance, also are a type of income tax, though not generally referred to as such"). More to the point, and I think we agree here, the deception is by framing the discussion only about the "us federal income tax" when that is only 60% of the total federal income/payroll taxes collected. If you tell people that the top 1% makes 22% of the money and pays 40% of federal income taxes it makes them sound oppressed. If you tell people that the top 1% makes 22% of the money, has 35% of wealth and pays 25% of federal income and payroll taxes, the oppression disappears.

r00fus 9y ago

Not while the general fund is allowed to steal from SS and then declare it as "debt". The vast majority of the US debt is owed to SS recipients.

wpietri 9y ago
Are you sure? From what I can tell, it's not close. Total debt is $19.4T; intergovernmental debt is $5.4T: https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/mspd/2016/opds062016.pdf https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/mspd/2016/opd... And given that the total trust fund appears to be $2.8T, I'm not sure how it could hold the majority of the debt: https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_oldage_and_survivors_insurance_trust_fund_assets_at_end_of_year https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_oldage_and_survivors_insur...
- r00fus 9y ago
  Who owns the US Nation Debt [1]. I stand corrected, the vast majority is owed not just to Social Security, but to retirees in general (though SS is the largest debt holder). [1] https://www.thebalance.com/who-owns-the-u-s-national-debt-3306124 https://www.thebalance.com/who-owns-the-u-s-national-debt-33...
  - wpietri 9y ago
    Again, I would like you to show your numbers, because I am not seeing the vast majority being owed to retirees, either.

Steko 9y ago

No, the truth is they aren't counted because correctly counting them would undermine the bullshit conclusion they're pushing.

ovao 9y ago
To count Social Security and Medicare withholding as part of federal income taxes would be incorrect, as neither are income taxes (they are payroll taxes.) I think to correctly frame what proportion any income group (or wealth group) pays, you have to look not just as federal income taxes, but at all taxes.
- Steko 9y ago
  I think you are arguing past me on the first part. They are "payroll taxes", yes. And there is a "US federal income tax" of which they are not, yes. Technically they do also fit the definition of what an income tax is (wikt:"A tax levied on earned and unearned income"; wikipedia "Retirement oriented taxes, such as Social Security or national insurance, also are a type of income tax, though not generally referred to as such"). More to the point, and I think we agree here, the deception is by framing the discussion only about the "us federal income tax" when that is only 60% of the total federal income/payroll taxes collected. If you tell people that the top 1% makes 22% of the money and pays 40% of federal income taxes it makes them sound oppressed. If you tell people that the top 1% makes 22% of the money, has 35% of wealth and pays 25% of federal income and payroll taxes, the oppression disappears.