8 ms·

Procedurally generated electronic music

107 points by stevehiehn 9y ago

NiklasMort 9y ago
jesus christ, BEWARE ITS LOUD
kevinr 9y ago
Oh this is very cool. The structure reminds me of Matthew Brown's "Music for Shuffle" project: http://musicforshuffle.com/2014/04/06/session1/ http://musicforshuffle.com/2014/04/06/session1/
eltoozero 9y ago
Raymond Scott[0] (1908-1984) comes to mind. He designed rhythm generators and automatic baseline sequencers. He died trying to complete building a monster electronic instrument called the "Electronium" of which only one incomplete and partially functional example exists, owned by Mark Mothersbaugh. I only wish his devices were documented or understood such that simulators or reproductions could be built. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Scott https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Scott [1]: https://youtu.be/0V2TZKcWnXE https://youtu.be/0V2TZKcWnXE [2]: https://youtu.be/o6VsZiNjjZE https://youtu.be/o6VsZiNjjZE
- stevehiehn 9y ago
  Wow, that is awesome. I never heard of that guy.
  - uhoh-itsmaciek 9y ago
    Scott was great. The Manhattan Research, Inc. compilation chronicles his electronic music work, and while a lot of it is outtakes and commercial jingles, it's fascinating. Fun fact: Scott also had a jazz combo and, among other things, recorded Powerhouse [1], which became a cartoon staple. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaC0vNLdLvY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaC0vNLdLvY
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- goldenkey 9y ago
  As usual, the comments of HN are the real gold :-) Thank you for sharing. I had never heard of Ray Scott before. The two clips you shared are mesmerizing. Sounds like the EDM that is being created today..crazy how much ahead of his day Mr. Scott's invention and consequently produced music was...
- pavel_lishin 9y ago
  This is really, really good. Reminds me a bit of the 8 Bit Construction Set, which is some random thing I downloaded in college, and loved: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsKZenP8vTE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsKZenP8vTE
bandrami 9y ago
It's interesting: some of the earliest European polyphony could be described as "procedurally generated"; the cantus firmus was assigned liturgically, and the descant could be determined by what we would today call an algorithm (sacred music was at this point considered science rather than a creative art). Plus ça change...
- ThomPete 9y ago
  Agree. Music is by and large about structure. What made it worth listening to was this structure combined with human imperfection in the details and once in a blue moon melodies and harmonies that sound like they are there without being actually played. Of known composers perhaps Bach was at the time the most mathematical of them. Within the next decade I believe algos will be able to write hit's. Already today a lot of the things we like to hear is really using technology to create soundscapes and hooks we would never be able to create as humans.
  - stevehiehn 9y ago
    My bet is we will see DAWs that essentially offer composers shortlisted options to choose from. In my SignalsAndSorcery project I am really just using machine learning to find composition options that make sense in the give context (based on my data set). A DAW could just keep presenting a series of options to choose from and almost anyone could be a composer.
    - ThomPete 9y ago
      Yup agree completetly.
    - FigBug 9y ago
      I'm currently working on a DAW, and this is definitely the direction we'd like to head. In our previous version, we added some basic chord progressions. The next most likely chords are suggested on statistics from popular music. But I'm stuck on where to take it next. I have some ideas for a melody generator, but I don't really know anything about machine learning, etc. When you are ready to implement you API, I'd be very interested in talking to you. Send me an email at roland@tracktion.com
eeZah7Ux 9y ago
Procedural music is really hard to get right.
bane 9y ago
Here's a winning demoscene production, 256 bytes, on a Commodore 64. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWblpsLZ-O8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWblpsLZ-O8 Technical discussion here: https://linusakesson.net/scene/a-mind-is-born/ https://linusakesson.net/scene/a-mind-is-born/
- stevehiehn 9y ago
  It blows my mind to think people could do anything with that little RAM. I'm the author of this project & it chews up about 32gb of ram to pump out one track.
  - bane 9y ago
    Well, yours is using significantly more advanced music sources and makes much more music.
- userbinator 9y ago
  Amazing sound and very detailed explanation, but the theory behind it is actually quite simple: music contains a lot of nested repetition, from the periodicity of a sampled wave to the overall structure of a song. Thus it is possible to express a lot of it succinctly with the equivalent of nested loops. Another demo from him with a similar theme, but with completely custom and even more limited hardware: http://www.linusakesson.net/scene/bitbanger/index.php http://www.linusakesson.net/scene/bitbanger/index.php
- fit2rule 9y ago
  Along similar notes, synth one-liners explored: http://countercomplex.blogspot.co.at/2011/10/algorithmic-symphonies-from-one-line-of.html http://countercomplex.blogspot.co.at/2011/10/algorithmic-sym...
- cgmg 9y ago
  Reminds me of using cellular automata to generate music: http://tones.wolfram.com/ http://tones.wolfram.com/.
indubitable 9y ago
Who owns the copyright on procedurally generated music? Mostly curious since some of these sound better than the ambient tracks you get in games. Even better, you could constrain the parameters of the generation to have each instance of a game generate different, but thematically similar, procedural music.
- FigBug 9y ago
  > 503.03(a) Works-not originated by a human author. > In order to be entitled to copyright registration, a work must be the product of human authorship. Works produced by mechanical processes or random selection without any contribution by a human author are not registrable. Possibly nobody, but it depends how much input the program requires to generate the output. Just press a button and a song comes out -- can't be copyrighted. User has to enter a lot of parameters to generate output, user gets get copyright.
  - WalterGR 9y ago
    Just press a button and a song comes out -- can't be copyrighted. I wonder: what would it take for a machine-generated work to be considered a work derived from a human-generated work? While the machine-generated work still wouldn't be copyrightable[0], would that prevent others from using the machine-generated work without an appropriate license? (IANAL.) [0] «To be copyrightable, a derivative work must incorporate some or all of a preexisting “work” and add new original copyrightable authorship to that work.» https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf [PDF]
  - somenewacc 9y ago
    > without any contribution by a human author are not registrable. Is there really no contribution of a human author -- the programmer? He wrote the source code, and supposedly imposed artistic qualities in the music that are themselves copyrightable. I agree that the user can't receive copyright since she didn't have any creative input.
aswanson 9y ago
The breaks are unpredictable, kinda dope.
mlaretallack 9y ago
Years ago I remember listening to algomusic on the Amiga. Every so often I do a search to see if anyone has made a version that works on Linux, but with no luck. This is getting there, but still feels a bit rough around the edges.
- mlaretallack 9y ago
  A quick search found the the author of AlgoMusic has moved on to a new project https://www.soundhelix.com https://www.soundhelix.com Some of the examples sound even better. That's my evening sorted.
  - stevehiehn 9y ago
    The soundhelix examples sound really good.
  - TranceTip 9y ago
    Try the Alexa skill. "Alexa, start SoundHelix and play song 46".
delgaudm 9y ago
What do the icons mean? I can't figure it out.
- stevehiehn 9y ago
  (project author here) Ya, sorry, its not clear at all. About 6 months ago I got the system working sorta ok, but i found it a bit boring. So I thought maybe if the algorithm generates N interchangeable variations associated with an emotion I could maybe make the music interactive. So the icons are going to represent a different emotion that a user can switch to at any point. Obviously its not really work very well. This site is ultimately a tool for me to test switching between variations. The end goal is not a website but to expose a music generating api that could be integrated into say, VR/game or something that might want interactive music.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
trypt 9y ago
Academia is significantly behind the times in this area Artists like Autechre and related links in this thread have been doing this for years using Max/MSP, to a much greater effect (albeit it's apparently a hybrid where the humans are at the "control panel" of the generative engine guiding it in the direction they want) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdKIJHXzPkk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdKIJHXzPkk
p0nce 9y ago
This was actually much better than I expected. Wondering what kind of neural net can do this, and what are the outputs. It sounds a bit "phasey" as if there is an IFFT step.
- stevehiehn 9y ago
  So its not just a single neural net. Its a bunch of different ML algorithms chained together. I'm essentially automating a 12(ish) piece electronic band. So first I have a ML algorithm that makes a chord progression. Then another that makes a bassline from the chords. Then another that makes a beat from the bassline & the chords and so on. At each step it uses the selected patterns to predict the next layer to be added. So to answer the question directly you can use RNN for some timeseries stuff. To decide if rhythm pattern are compatible I found success with CNN, random forests, and support vector machines. I even found you can make reasonable chord progressions just using N-grams. What I'm trying to say is I found I had to make an entire audio production pipeline that uses ML at each step of the way.
  - p1esk 9y ago
    Are you planning to describe all that in more detail? I skimmed the 4 blog posts you published, but it's still not clear to me how the music is being generated. Also, why did you decide to separate the "layers"? Technically, an RNN trained on similar music should be able to generate all "layers" simultaneously.
    - stevehiehn 9y ago
      I will hopefully add more detail eventually. When I say layer I am taking about a music layer like a melody not a layer of neurons. Most of the music is midi rendered with vst synths or sound fonts.
      - p1esk 9y ago
        Yes, that was what I meant when I said "layers" as well. RNN can generate all layers at once (more than one note per time step for a single instrument, and more than one instrument per time step overall). Basically what I'm saying is if you train it on such complex music, it will learn to generate it.

107 points by stevehiehn 9y ago

jesus christ, BEWARE ITS LOUD

Oh this is very cool. The structure reminds me of Matthew Brown's "Music for Shuffle" project: http://musicforshuffle.com/2014/04/06/session1/ http://musicforshuffle.com/2014/04/06/session1/

eltoozero 9y ago

Raymond Scott[0] (1908-1984) comes to mind. He designed rhythm generators and automatic baseline sequencers. He died trying to complete building a monster electronic instrument called the "Electronium" of which only one incomplete and partially functional example exists, owned by Mark Mothersbaugh. I only wish his devices were documented or understood such that simulators or reproductions could be built. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Scott https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Scott [1]: https://youtu.be/0V2TZKcWnXE https://youtu.be/0V2TZKcWnXE [2]: https://youtu.be/o6VsZiNjjZE https://youtu.be/o6VsZiNjjZE

stevehiehn 9y ago
Wow, that is awesome. I never heard of that guy.
- uhoh-itsmaciek 9y ago
  Scott was great. The Manhattan Research, Inc. compilation chronicles his electronic music work, and while a lot of it is outtakes and commercial jingles, it's fascinating. Fun fact: Scott also had a jazz combo and, among other things, recorded Powerhouse [1], which became a cartoon staple. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaC0vNLdLvY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaC0vNLdLvY
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
goldenkey 9y ago
As usual, the comments of HN are the real gold :-) Thank you for sharing. I had never heard of Ray Scott before. The two clips you shared are mesmerizing. Sounds like the EDM that is being created today..crazy how much ahead of his day Mr. Scott's invention and consequently produced music was...
pavel_lishin 9y ago
This is really, really good. Reminds me a bit of the 8 Bit Construction Set, which is some random thing I downloaded in college, and loved: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsKZenP8vTE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsKZenP8vTE

bandrami 9y ago

It's interesting: some of the earliest European polyphony could be described as "procedurally generated"; the cantus firmus was assigned liturgically, and the descant could be determined by what we would today call an algorithm (sacred music was at this point considered science rather than a creative art). Plus ça change...

ThomPete 9y ago
Agree. Music is by and large about structure. What made it worth listening to was this structure combined with human imperfection in the details and once in a blue moon melodies and harmonies that sound like they are there without being actually played. Of known composers perhaps Bach was at the time the most mathematical of them. Within the next decade I believe algos will be able to write hit's. Already today a lot of the things we like to hear is really using technology to create soundscapes and hooks we would never be able to create as humans.
- stevehiehn 9y ago
  My bet is we will see DAWs that essentially offer composers shortlisted options to choose from. In my SignalsAndSorcery project I am really just using machine learning to find composition options that make sense in the give context (based on my data set). A DAW could just keep presenting a series of options to choose from and almost anyone could be a composer.
  - ThomPete 9y ago
    Yup agree completetly.
  - FigBug 9y ago
    I'm currently working on a DAW, and this is definitely the direction we'd like to head. In our previous version, we added some basic chord progressions. The next most likely chords are suggested on statistics from popular music. But I'm stuck on where to take it next. I have some ideas for a melody generator, but I don't really know anything about machine learning, etc. When you are ready to implement you API, I'd be very interested in talking to you. Send me an email at roland@tracktion.com

eeZah7Ux 9y ago

Procedural music is really hard to get right.

bane 9y ago

Here's a winning demoscene production, 256 bytes, on a Commodore 64. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWblpsLZ-O8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWblpsLZ-O8 Technical discussion here: https://linusakesson.net/scene/a-mind-is-born/ https://linusakesson.net/scene/a-mind-is-born/

stevehiehn 9y ago
It blows my mind to think people could do anything with that little RAM. I'm the author of this project & it chews up about 32gb of ram to pump out one track.
- bane 9y ago
  Well, yours is using significantly more advanced music sources and makes much more music.
userbinator 9y ago
Amazing sound and very detailed explanation, but the theory behind it is actually quite simple: music contains a lot of nested repetition, from the periodicity of a sampled wave to the overall structure of a song. Thus it is possible to express a lot of it succinctly with the equivalent of nested loops. Another demo from him with a similar theme, but with completely custom and even more limited hardware: http://www.linusakesson.net/scene/bitbanger/index.php http://www.linusakesson.net/scene/bitbanger/index.php
fit2rule 9y ago
Along similar notes, synth one-liners explored: http://countercomplex.blogspot.co.at/2011/10/algorithmic-symphonies-from-one-line-of.html http://countercomplex.blogspot.co.at/2011/10/algorithmic-sym...
cgmg 9y ago
Reminds me of using cellular automata to generate music: http://tones.wolfram.com/ http://tones.wolfram.com/.

indubitable 9y ago

Who owns the copyright on procedurally generated music? Mostly curious since some of these sound better than the ambient tracks you get in games. Even better, you could constrain the parameters of the generation to have each instance of a game generate different, but thematically similar, procedural music.

FigBug 9y ago
> 503.03(a) Works-not originated by a human author. > In order to be entitled to copyright registration, a work must be the product of human authorship. Works produced by mechanical processes or random selection without any contribution by a human author are not registrable. Possibly nobody, but it depends how much input the program requires to generate the output. Just press a button and a song comes out -- can't be copyrighted. User has to enter a lot of parameters to generate output, user gets get copyright.
- WalterGR 9y ago
  Just press a button and a song comes out -- can't be copyrighted. I wonder: what would it take for a machine-generated work to be considered a work derived from a human-generated work? While the machine-generated work still wouldn't be copyrightable[0], would that prevent others from using the machine-generated work without an appropriate license? (IANAL.) [0] «To be copyrightable, a derivative work must incorporate some or all of a preexisting “work” and add new original copyrightable authorship to that work.» https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf [PDF]
- somenewacc 9y ago
  > without any contribution by a human author are not registrable. Is there really no contribution of a human author -- the programmer? He wrote the source code, and supposedly imposed artistic qualities in the music that are themselves copyrightable. I agree that the user can't receive copyright since she didn't have any creative input.

aswanson 9y ago

The breaks are unpredictable, kinda dope.

mlaretallack 9y ago

Years ago I remember listening to algomusic on the Amiga. Every so often I do a search to see if anyone has made a version that works on Linux, but with no luck. This is getting there, but still feels a bit rough around the edges.

mlaretallack 9y ago
A quick search found the the author of AlgoMusic has moved on to a new project https://www.soundhelix.com https://www.soundhelix.com Some of the examples sound even better. That's my evening sorted.
- stevehiehn 9y ago
  The soundhelix examples sound really good.
- TranceTip 9y ago
  Try the Alexa skill. "Alexa, start SoundHelix and play song 46".

delgaudm 9y ago

What do the icons mean? I can't figure it out.

stevehiehn 9y ago
(project author here) Ya, sorry, its not clear at all. About 6 months ago I got the system working sorta ok, but i found it a bit boring. So I thought maybe if the algorithm generates N interchangeable variations associated with an emotion I could maybe make the music interactive. So the icons are going to represent a different emotion that a user can switch to at any point. Obviously its not really work very well. This site is ultimately a tool for me to test switching between variations. The end goal is not a website but to expose a music generating api that could be integrated into say, VR/game or something that might want interactive music.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

trypt 9y ago

Academia is significantly behind the times in this area Artists like Autechre and related links in this thread have been doing this for years using Max/MSP, to a much greater effect (albeit it's apparently a hybrid where the humans are at the "control panel" of the generative engine guiding it in the direction they want) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdKIJHXzPkk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdKIJHXzPkk

p0nce 9y ago

This was actually much better than I expected. Wondering what kind of neural net can do this, and what are the outputs. It sounds a bit "phasey" as if there is an IFFT step.

stevehiehn 9y ago
So its not just a single neural net. Its a bunch of different ML algorithms chained together. I'm essentially automating a 12(ish) piece electronic band. So first I have a ML algorithm that makes a chord progression. Then another that makes a bassline from the chords. Then another that makes a beat from the bassline & the chords and so on. At each step it uses the selected patterns to predict the next layer to be added. So to answer the question directly you can use RNN for some timeseries stuff. To decide if rhythm pattern are compatible I found success with CNN, random forests, and support vector machines. I even found you can make reasonable chord progressions just using N-grams. What I'm trying to say is I found I had to make an entire audio production pipeline that uses ML at each step of the way.
- p1esk 9y ago
  Are you planning to describe all that in more detail? I skimmed the 4 blog posts you published, but it's still not clear to me how the music is being generated. Also, why did you decide to separate the "layers"? Technically, an RNN trained on similar music should be able to generate all "layers" simultaneously.
  - stevehiehn 9y ago
    I will hopefully add more detail eventually. When I say layer I am taking about a music layer like a melody not a layer of neurons. Most of the music is midi rendered with vst synths or sound fonts.
    - p1esk 9y ago
      Yes, that was what I meant when I said "layers" as well. RNN can generate all layers at once (more than one note per time step for a single instrument, and more than one instrument per time step overall). Basically what I'm saying is if you train it on such complex music, it will learn to generate it.