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But normal people also don't have huge amounts of money and time to spend on sending someone to the parliament to speak for their interests. What they have is p

by Joe-Z 9y ago

But normal people also don't have huge amounts of money and time to spend on sending someone to the parliament to speak for their interests. What they have is parties they can vote for, which are then supposed to make policies as promised to their voters. What happens though is that lobbyists step in and buy them off. So please don't try to sell lobbyists as some pillar of democracy.

vertex-four 9y ago
The people have political organisations of our own, you realise - I donate to a few in my country that regularly have people talking to our elected representatives and the people in charge of creating Government policy. It doesn't actually cost a lot of money to lobby the Government when enough people are actually interested in a problem. The problem is broadly apathy.
- gtvwill 9y ago
  Yeah but your a small percentage of the population to actually have the disposable income to donate to a cause you feel is worthy. I'd love to donate money to plenty of causes, but then I wouldn't be able to eat or pay rent. So I'm at the perils of lobbyists as I can't afford to make my voice heard. Heaps democratic isn't it.
  - confounded 9y ago
    I’m not sure if the percentage is as small as you think. Trade unions for example are a traditional working class way of clubbing together resources to do some lobbying. Making even small contributions is meaningful, and you have time and enthusiasm to offer, that’s worth a lot too.
- imregbannd 9y ago
  The problem more broady is economic incentive. There are free rider issue that we all share the rights we currently have, so no one wants to pay to keep these rights. Then there is profit incentive, there is none, either in keeping our rights or increasing them. Corporate entities however have both these incentives. Instead of non profit agencies, a better structure would be a corporation profiting from the freedoms people desire, purchase equity in the company and have a board that finds profit incentive in various freedoms and rights. Philosophically this is libertarism or anarcho-capitalism.
  - confounded 9y ago
    I’ll bite. How does having limitations on your freedom depend on someone else’s profit motive, increase your liberty? Can you give any examples of how this would work, and the advantage that the profit motive brings?
s73ver_ 9y ago
Can you call your congressperson? Congratulations, you can lobby.
- throw2016 9y ago
  Corporate lobbying is more than just organizing to 'be heard'. It's a sophisticated and entrenched patronage system that involves party donations, individual donations, favours, junkets, nepotism, revolving doors and more. Comcast, Mylan, Oxycontin, Monsanto, the current FCC chair just a few egregious recent examples, taking decisions against public interest even in the face of strong vocal resistance from the public so calling won't help. Lobbyists are a major portion of the Washington political establishment.
JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> But normal people also don't have huge amounts of money and time to spend on sending someone to the parliament to speak for their interests I call my Senators and Congressperson. I go to monthly neighborhood political meetings. (I'm often the only person under 40 not running to become, or be promoted, as a judge.) From time to time goes above and beyond for a (usually first-time) candidate. I'm in a startling minority. Despite living in a Congressional district in the middle of Manhattan, I am often the only one to call regarding issues like encryption, the TSA or nominations. Several times, the SLA copied themselves in and requested follow-up conversations or copies of articles or papers I referenced. On a small handful of occasions, a publicly-announced position was backtracked on. A minority of the population understand the long-term implications of what the record labels are doing. A minority, the labels, stand to profit. If only one side is giving representatives talking points, they don't need donations or promises of cushy jobs to win votes. They just need to hold their monopoly on the information vacuum informed citizens cede when they sleep between elections. None of this takes money nor a ton of time. It takes some effort, however, which is apparently enough.
- Benjamin_Dobell 9y ago
  > None of this takes money nor a ton of time. It takes some effort, however, which is apparently enough. Most people are struggling to make ends meet, when they're not working they're sleeping. You can't judge most people for not having time to petition politicians. In my experience it's extremely time consuming to even get your voice heard in a local council (Australia) meeting; and 99% of the time you're dismissed even when you have multiple people making the same point against one corporate entity. For the most part it's futile and exhausting... and depressing. Don't forget corporate entities have people whose job it is to petition governments, it's those people's livelihood. Meanwhile, your average person petitioning is typically adversely affecting their own livelihood.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
    In support of this: I work in structural steel fabrication in Tasmania. Between working 56hr weeks and taking care of the dog, I don't have much to do anything else. I recently bought a house, so I have been meaning to pay more attention to local council.

by Joe-Z 9y ago

vertex-four 9y ago

The people have political organisations of our own, you realise - I donate to a few in my country that regularly have people talking to our elected representatives and the people in charge of creating Government policy. It doesn't actually cost a lot of money to lobby the Government when enough people are actually interested in a problem. The problem is broadly apathy.

gtvwill 9y ago
Yeah but your a small percentage of the population to actually have the disposable income to donate to a cause you feel is worthy. I'd love to donate money to plenty of causes, but then I wouldn't be able to eat or pay rent. So I'm at the perils of lobbyists as I can't afford to make my voice heard. Heaps democratic isn't it.
- confounded 9y ago
  I’m not sure if the percentage is as small as you think. Trade unions for example are a traditional working class way of clubbing together resources to do some lobbying. Making even small contributions is meaningful, and you have time and enthusiasm to offer, that’s worth a lot too.
imregbannd 9y ago
The problem more broady is economic incentive. There are free rider issue that we all share the rights we currently have, so no one wants to pay to keep these rights. Then there is profit incentive, there is none, either in keeping our rights or increasing them. Corporate entities however have both these incentives. Instead of non profit agencies, a better structure would be a corporation profiting from the freedoms people desire, purchase equity in the company and have a board that finds profit incentive in various freedoms and rights. Philosophically this is libertarism or anarcho-capitalism.
- confounded 9y ago
  I’ll bite. How does having limitations on your freedom depend on someone else’s profit motive, increase your liberty? Can you give any examples of how this would work, and the advantage that the profit motive brings?

s73ver_ 9y ago

Can you call your congressperson? Congratulations, you can lobby.

throw2016 9y ago
Corporate lobbying is more than just organizing to 'be heard'. It's a sophisticated and entrenched patronage system that involves party donations, individual donations, favours, junkets, nepotism, revolving doors and more. Comcast, Mylan, Oxycontin, Monsanto, the current FCC chair just a few egregious recent examples, taking decisions against public interest even in the face of strong vocal resistance from the public so calling won't help. Lobbyists are a major portion of the Washington political establishment.

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

> But normal people also don't have huge amounts of money and time to spend on sending someone to the parliament to speak for their interests I call my Senators and Congressperson. I go to monthly neighborhood political meetings. (I'm often the only person under 40 not running to become, or be promoted, as a judge.) From time to time goes above and beyond for a (usually first-time) candidate. I'm in a startling minority. Despite living in a Congressional district in the middle of Manhattan, I am often the only one to call regarding issues like encryption, the TSA or nominations. Several times, the SLA copied themselves in and requested follow-up conversations or copies of articles or papers I referenced. On a small handful of occasions, a publicly-announced position was backtracked on. A minority of the population understand the long-term implications of what the record labels are doing. A minority, the labels, stand to profit. If only one side is giving representatives talking points, they don't need donations or promises of cushy jobs to win votes. They just need to hold their monopoly on the information vacuum informed citizens cede when they sleep between elections. None of this takes money nor a ton of time. It takes some effort, however, which is apparently enough.

Benjamin_Dobell 9y ago
> None of this takes money nor a ton of time. It takes some effort, however, which is apparently enough. Most people are struggling to make ends meet, when they're not working they're sleeping. You can't judge most people for not having time to petition politicians. In my experience it's extremely time consuming to even get your voice heard in a local council (Australia) meeting; and 99% of the time you're dismissed even when you have multiple people making the same point against one corporate entity. For the most part it's futile and exhausting... and depressing. Don't forget corporate entities have people whose job it is to petition governments, it's those people's livelihood. Meanwhile, your average person petitioning is typically adversely affecting their own livelihood.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  In support of this: I work in structural steel fabrication in Tasmania. Between working 56hr weeks and taking care of the dog, I don't have much to do anything else. I recently bought a house, so I have been meaning to pay more attention to local council.