3 ms·

Let's just take it a step further. Now East Catalonia thinks they'd be better off as an independent state, and wait now Barcelona wants to be its own city state

Let's just take it a step further. Now East Catalonia thinks they'd be better off as an independent state, and wait now Barcelona wants to be its own city state. I understand the thirst for democracy, but there's a reason we're collectively moving towards integration as Europeans, it does make us stronger in the long run and helps bring peace and stability.

Grustaf 9y ago
I wouldn’t say it’s more or leas democratic to let Catalonia leave, since Spain as a whole would vote no. But with regards to integration, Soviet fell apart. So did Jugoslavia, and then Serbia fractured further. The UK almost fell apart, and they did vote to leave the EU. Many countries in Central Europe are very sceptical of Brussels, and I would say that decentralization is at least as strong a trend as “integration”. In any event it definitely wasn’t “we as Europeans” that demanded integration, enormous amounts of money were spent by governments to get their respective populaces to vote yes to EU. It’s very much a top down thing, and I’m not so as convinced as you that it will last. Especially a monetary union that includes both countries like Portugal and Greece on the one hand, and Finland and Germany on the other, seems pretty brittle.
jernfrost 9y ago
And I'd say that would be fine. Your thinking betrays a certain authoritarian paternalistic streak. That somehow the plebs can't grasp what is best for them. It ought to be assumed that people would not automatically assume ever bigger divisions is an improvement. You have to put faith in people's ability to think for themselves. In most of these independence referendums people DO end up staying. People are not stupid. They would have likely voted to stay in Catalonia, had Spain respected their desire for a referendum and not acted so authoritarian. Remember lots of countries have voluntarily joined the EU despite the fact that that means giving up some sovereignty. So it is simply not true that people want ever smaller units. But these decisions should be allowed to move both ways. Those who want to forge political unions should be allowed to and those who want to split should be allowed to. When you don't allow splits, what you eventually end up with is civil wars. I'd say the US is an excellent example of the stupidity of insisting on large political units. The country is almost ungovernable, due to the huge political polarization. Lincoln should never have tried to maintain the union. It would have save many lives and avoided future political gridlock and political polarization.
- kristiandupont 9y ago
  Leaving Spain (and thus, the EU) is going to have severe consequences financially and in other ways (families that have someone working in another EU country who would suddenly not be a Schengen member etc.). Yes, the UK followed this democratic way and voted themselves out of the EU and you could argue that Catalonia should be able to do the same but as with Brexit, it would mean that close to half of the population is going to see their life affected in a way that they never wanted. The argument that the people should be allowed to decide i these matters is often made and it's easy to view the opposite stance as condescending but there are many philosophical and pragmatic arguments against direct democracy and I think these are situations where they apply.
  - Grustaf 9y ago
    Is there any indication they’d like to leave the EU as well? Aren’t they very pro EU?
    - kristiandupont 9y ago
      They are. And some argue that they would be allowed to stay but the European Commission stated that they would not (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-17-3626_en.htm http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-17-3626_en.ht...) and I don't think it's very likely that they would be able to. At best, it's a pretty reckless bet to make.

Grustaf 9y ago

I wouldn’t say it’s more or leas democratic to let Catalonia leave, since Spain as a whole would vote no. But with regards to integration, Soviet fell apart. So did Jugoslavia, and then Serbia fractured further. The UK almost fell apart, and they did vote to leave the EU. Many countries in Central Europe are very sceptical of Brussels, and I would say that decentralization is at least as strong a trend as “integration”. In any event it definitely wasn’t “we as Europeans” that demanded integration, enormous amounts of money were spent by governments to get their respective populaces to vote yes to EU. It’s very much a top down thing, and I’m not so as convinced as you that it will last. Especially a monetary union that includes both countries like Portugal and Greece on the one hand, and Finland and Germany on the other, seems pretty brittle.

jernfrost 9y ago

And I'd say that would be fine. Your thinking betrays a certain authoritarian paternalistic streak. That somehow the plebs can't grasp what is best for them. It ought to be assumed that people would not automatically assume ever bigger divisions is an improvement. You have to put faith in people's ability to think for themselves. In most of these independence referendums people DO end up staying. People are not stupid. They would have likely voted to stay in Catalonia, had Spain respected their desire for a referendum and not acted so authoritarian. Remember lots of countries have voluntarily joined the EU despite the fact that that means giving up some sovereignty. So it is simply not true that people want ever smaller units. But these decisions should be allowed to move both ways. Those who want to forge political unions should be allowed to and those who want to split should be allowed to. When you don't allow splits, what you eventually end up with is civil wars. I'd say the US is an excellent example of the stupidity of insisting on large political units. The country is almost ungovernable, due to the huge political polarization. Lincoln should never have tried to maintain the union. It would have save many lives and avoided future political gridlock and political polarization.

kristiandupont 9y ago
Leaving Spain (and thus, the EU) is going to have severe consequences financially and in other ways (families that have someone working in another EU country who would suddenly not be a Schengen member etc.). Yes, the UK followed this democratic way and voted themselves out of the EU and you could argue that Catalonia should be able to do the same but as with Brexit, it would mean that close to half of the population is going to see their life affected in a way that they never wanted. The argument that the people should be allowed to decide i these matters is often made and it's easy to view the opposite stance as condescending but there are many philosophical and pragmatic arguments against direct democracy and I think these are situations where they apply.
- Grustaf 9y ago
  Is there any indication they’d like to leave the EU as well? Aren’t they very pro EU?
  - kristiandupont 9y ago
    They are. And some argue that they would be allowed to stay but the European Commission stated that they would not (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-17-3626_en.htm http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-17-3626_en.ht...) and I don't think it's very likely that they would be able to. At best, it's a pretty reckless bet to make.