5 ms·

IMO if you solve for inclement weather and snow you've brought the capabilities of autonomous vehicles to a nationally viable level.

by beager 9y ago

Tarq0n 9y ago
Is there progress being made on letting cars self-drive on unmarked and dirt roads? I imagine that would be important for users in less developed areas.
- olyjohn 9y ago
  Sounds like it would be a good step to take before taking on snowy roads. The conditions are pretty similar with low traction, no markings, People driving in opposite directions having to figure out a way around eachother when the road narrows... At least you wouldn't have to deal with the actual cold temps and snow and ice. Traction would be more consistent on gravel vs snowy and icy roads too.
- eco 9y ago
  The first two DARPA Grand Challenges took place on dirt roads. Well maintained dirt roads but dirt roads nonetheless.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    Well-graded dirt roads in good weather aren't really challenging other than not having lane markers. (Which is pretty much a trivial issue for a human.) Maybe you need to slow down a bit if it gets washboardy. The challenge is as roads get narrower (<2 cars), rougher, etc. to the point where you really need high-clearance 4WD and may even have to deal with washouts, etc. I don't expect you'll see autonomous driving systems get here for many decades if only because it's not worthwhile to do so and so much is dependent on evaluating the current conditions on the ground.
    - eco 9y ago
      Just an aside but you actually want to do the counterintuitive thing and speed up on washboardy roads (provided it is safe to do so). Higher speed means your vehicle won't have time to be pulled down into dips letting you ride smoothly supported by the peaks.
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  The video in the top voted sub comment (now) shows the Tesla unable to navigate a two lane suburban road safely for long with the youtube comments/excuses saying it's an early release of non highway software (2017). I don't know anything about it technically but that is not particularly confidence inspiring.
akira2501 9y ago
I wouldn't be that optimistic.. I grew up in Duluth, MN. A city that in 2 miles goes from 600' ASL to 1400' ASL, there are some roads with a greater than 10% grade to them. It snows there, and not just any snow, lake-effect snow. You really do need a special set of skills and roadway awareness to navigate inclement weather in cities like this. Detroit is a great step, but I'd really like to see some more challenging areas handled before I'm convinced.
- beager 9y ago
  I think a good question that follows from that is: how unsafe is too unsafe for autonomous vehicles? Can we evaluate roads in some generalized way that will not only prevent autonomous vehicle activity, but inform local governments about when they should institute driving bans? In an ideal world, I trust autonomous cars over human-operated cars. So if the conditions are too dire for autonomous cars, I really don't want to be out there with humans driving.
  - akira2501 9y ago
    > but inform local governments about when they should institute driving bans? In the U.S. I'm not even sure what such a mechanism would look like? How could you enforce this? > In an ideal world, I trust autonomous cars over human-operated cars. I don't understand this mentality out-of-hand, especially because I've been in cars that have had mechanical failures. There is no mechanical system that is perfectly reliable, and I'm not sure we're considering the emergent effects of this properly. Finally, unless you outright _force_ all drivers to use the autonomous mode, then users can still take control of their cars as they see fit and we're really not improving anything. Case in point, the video says that driving deaths disproportionately affects young _people_. Which is garbage.. it affects young _men_ who are 8 times more likely to die in a vehicle that they're driving than a female of the same age. I don't know how autonomous modes being available are really going to help this group.
    - beager 9y ago
      > In the U.S. I'm not even sure what such a mechanism would look like? How could you enforce this? Some entity produces the data that finds roads unfit for driving based on weather and publishes it, local governments consume that data and institute a driving ban, non-essential personnel cannot drive or they'll get a citation. > I don't understand this mentality out-of-hand, especially because I've been in cars that have had mechanical failures. There is no mechanical system that is perfectly reliable, and I'm not sure we're considering the emergent effects of this properly. Correct, but I believe that a well-conceived autonomous car has a much higher standard of proper operation than a human, so even if there were mechanical problems, I'd trust the autonomous car to halt operation before the human. I also don't really understand your last point so sorry for not addressing it.

IMO if you solve for inclement weather and snow you've brought the capabilities of autonomous vehicles to a nationally viable level.

by beager 9y ago

IMO if you solve for inclement weather and snow you've brought the capabilities of autonomous vehicles to a nationally viable level.

Tarq0n 9y ago

Is there progress being made on letting cars self-drive on unmarked and dirt roads? I imagine that would be important for users in less developed areas.

olyjohn 9y ago
Sounds like it would be a good step to take before taking on snowy roads. The conditions are pretty similar with low traction, no markings, People driving in opposite directions having to figure out a way around eachother when the road narrows... At least you wouldn't have to deal with the actual cold temps and snow and ice. Traction would be more consistent on gravel vs snowy and icy roads too.
eco 9y ago
The first two DARPA Grand Challenges took place on dirt roads. Well maintained dirt roads but dirt roads nonetheless.
- ghaff 9y ago
  Well-graded dirt roads in good weather aren't really challenging other than not having lane markers. (Which is pretty much a trivial issue for a human.) Maybe you need to slow down a bit if it gets washboardy. The challenge is as roads get narrower (<2 cars), rougher, etc. to the point where you really need high-clearance 4WD and may even have to deal with washouts, etc. I don't expect you'll see autonomous driving systems get here for many decades if only because it's not worthwhile to do so and so much is dependent on evaluating the current conditions on the ground.
  - eco 9y ago
    Just an aside but you actually want to do the counterintuitive thing and speed up on washboardy roads (provided it is safe to do so). Higher speed means your vehicle won't have time to be pulled down into dips letting you ride smoothly supported by the peaks.
stevenwoo 9y ago
The video in the top voted sub comment (now) shows the Tesla unable to navigate a two lane suburban road safely for long with the youtube comments/excuses saying it's an early release of non highway software (2017). I don't know anything about it technically but that is not particularly confidence inspiring.

akira2501 9y ago

I wouldn't be that optimistic.. I grew up in Duluth, MN. A city that in 2 miles goes from 600' ASL to 1400' ASL, there are some roads with a greater than 10% grade to them. It snows there, and not just any snow, lake-effect snow. You really do need a special set of skills and roadway awareness to navigate inclement weather in cities like this. Detroit is a great step, but I'd really like to see some more challenging areas handled before I'm convinced.

beager 9y ago
I think a good question that follows from that is: how unsafe is too unsafe for autonomous vehicles? Can we evaluate roads in some generalized way that will not only prevent autonomous vehicle activity, but inform local governments about when they should institute driving bans? In an ideal world, I trust autonomous cars over human-operated cars. So if the conditions are too dire for autonomous cars, I really don't want to be out there with humans driving.
- akira2501 9y ago
  > but inform local governments about when they should institute driving bans? In the U.S. I'm not even sure what such a mechanism would look like? How could you enforce this? > In an ideal world, I trust autonomous cars over human-operated cars. I don't understand this mentality out-of-hand, especially because I've been in cars that have had mechanical failures. There is no mechanical system that is perfectly reliable, and I'm not sure we're considering the emergent effects of this properly. Finally, unless you outright _force_ all drivers to use the autonomous mode, then users can still take control of their cars as they see fit and we're really not improving anything. Case in point, the video says that driving deaths disproportionately affects young _people_. Which is garbage.. it affects young _men_ who are 8 times more likely to die in a vehicle that they're driving than a female of the same age. I don't know how autonomous modes being available are really going to help this group.
  - beager 9y ago
    > In the U.S. I'm not even sure what such a mechanism would look like? How could you enforce this? Some entity produces the data that finds roads unfit for driving based on weather and publishes it, local governments consume that data and institute a driving ban, non-essential personnel cannot drive or they'll get a citation. > I don't understand this mentality out-of-hand, especially because I've been in cars that have had mechanical failures. There is no mechanical system that is perfectly reliable, and I'm not sure we're considering the emergent effects of this properly. Correct, but I believe that a well-conceived autonomous car has a much higher standard of proper operation than a human, so even if there were mechanical problems, I'd trust the autonomous car to halt operation before the human. I also don't really understand your last point so sorry for not addressing it.