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I'm Chinese (well, half-Chinese). I don't appreciate an opinion on individual liberty and freedom of expression, association, self-determiniation, etc. being la

by kobeya 9y ago

I'm Chinese (well, half-Chinese). I don't appreciate an opinion on individual liberty and freedom of expression, association, self-determiniation, etc. being labeled as "East vs West" or worse, connected to imperialism or being implicitly racist. The Enlightenment began with the belief that all people are equal. ALL. Doesn't matter if you are white or black or asian or indigenous, or what family, race, gender or sexual orientation you happened to be born into. The Enlightenment has torn down the institution of slavery, overthrown monarchies, revoked state-run monopolies, and given franchise to women and minorities. And it has brought monumental progress to ALL of humankind, including basically all modern technology and medicine. And we are still moving forward, this juggernaut of progress, and we are doing so BECAUSE we have freedoms. The history of the world is that of brief stints of progress being flamed out by oppressive regimes until at long last the scientific revolution took hold. I won't apologize for standing with the Enlightenment and judging governments by how well they achieve these goals for their citizens. As China seeks to control its people, it does so at the detriment of future progress not in service of it. China's anti-liberty actions and policies are regressive and on the wrong side of history. And to say that it is somehow just an expression of different culture is insulting to the Chinese people who deserve freedom and personal liberty, and dishonor to the memory of those like Sun Yat-sen and others who fought for and achieved societal revolution towards Enlightenment ideals in China and with the support of the Chinese people. There's nothing uniquely Chinese about totalitarian oppression, or anything unique about the Chinese people that make them ineligible for our sympathies.

t1o5 9y ago
Your opinions depends on your citizenship. When you say Chinese (well, half-Chinese), are you a citizen of China ?
- kobeya 9y ago
  > Your opinions depends on your citizenship. Wow. I don't think anything I said got through to you.
  - t1o5 9y ago
    Again, like I said, your opinions about China depends on your citizenship. Its common for people to throw dirt on their country of origin once they are given citizenship of a more better country.
    - winter_blue 9y ago
      You really don't get it, do you? If some X gov (anywhere in the world) uses force and violence against its own citizens to suppress free speech and dissent, I would condemn it. If my own country did it, I would condemn it 10 times more harshly. And, you're insinuating that the OP has the opinions he has as a result of his citizenship. Which is ridiculous and completely illogical. The principle of free speech has absolutely nothing to do with any country or culture. It's independent of both.
      - grzm 9y ago
        > You really don't get it, do you? If you've reached a point where you truly believe this is true, it's probably best to just politely end the conversation, both for you and for HN. On the other hand, if you believe you're discussing the topic with someone who is reasonable, this is probably not a way that will help them understand the point you're trying to make. Once you put someone on the defensive (and I certainly would be if someone were to say this to me), it's that much harder for them to listen to what you have to say, if they even still want to. Regardless of how frustrated you are or how wrongheaded you believe the other person to be, or how they're behaving, it's never okay to be uncivil. Indeed when discussions get heated, it's even more important that we take even more care to do so.
- dang 9y ago
  This somehow manages to combine both personal attack and a nationalistic edge, both of which are not ok in comments here. Please don't post like this again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
winter_blue 9y ago
Wow, this was really well-written, and hit on so many excellent points. I'd love to quote your comment elsewhere, if you don't mind. I find it really sad when some people think that the basic ideas of the Enlightenment are somehow "Western". They originated in the West, but they are absolutely and in no way linked to any notion of "Western culture". As some that's mildly libertarian leaning, I'd say the core ideals of Enlightenment are universal moral principles that are objectively good, and workable for any human society. For example, the principle of free speech boils down to this simple concept: Don't commit acts of violence against someone because they __said__ something you don't like (with emphasis on "said"). This is not a hard concept to grasp. When some culture claims that such a principle (like free speech) is not "compatible" with their culture, it's a cop-out, and an excuse for some group of people to continue maintaining power, or something like it.
- kobeya 9y ago
  > I'd love to quote your comment elsewhere, if you don't mind. Sure. > [the ideas of the Englightenment] originated in the West I would say they first took root and lasted long enough to have impact in the West. As you say, the ideas of the Enlightenment are universal moral principles that aren't really tied to specific culture, a sort of political version of the Golden Rule. It might even have been the state of nature before agriculture and townships gave rise to kingships and states. We didn't used to be slaves to The Man. To harp on the theme of this thread, things could have gone very differently if Mo Di's philosophy became the official state belief instead of Confucius' legalism: https://www.ancient.eu/Mo_Ti/ https://www.ancient.eu/Mo_Ti/

by kobeya 9y ago

t1o5 9y ago

Your opinions depends on your citizenship. When you say Chinese (well, half-Chinese), are you a citizen of China ?

kobeya 9y ago
> Your opinions depends on your citizenship. Wow. I don't think anything I said got through to you.
- t1o5 9y ago
  Again, like I said, your opinions about China depends on your citizenship. Its common for people to throw dirt on their country of origin once they are given citizenship of a more better country.
  - winter_blue 9y ago
    You really don't get it, do you? If some X gov (anywhere in the world) uses force and violence against its own citizens to suppress free speech and dissent, I would condemn it. If my own country did it, I would condemn it 10 times more harshly. And, you're insinuating that the OP has the opinions he has as a result of his citizenship. Which is ridiculous and completely illogical. The principle of free speech has absolutely nothing to do with any country or culture. It's independent of both.
    - grzm 9y ago
      > You really don't get it, do you? If you've reached a point where you truly believe this is true, it's probably best to just politely end the conversation, both for you and for HN. On the other hand, if you believe you're discussing the topic with someone who is reasonable, this is probably not a way that will help them understand the point you're trying to make. Once you put someone on the defensive (and I certainly would be if someone were to say this to me), it's that much harder for them to listen to what you have to say, if they even still want to. Regardless of how frustrated you are or how wrongheaded you believe the other person to be, or how they're behaving, it's never okay to be uncivil. Indeed when discussions get heated, it's even more important that we take even more care to do so.
dang 9y ago
This somehow manages to combine both personal attack and a nationalistic edge, both of which are not ok in comments here. Please don't post like this again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

winter_blue 9y ago

Wow, this was really well-written, and hit on so many excellent points. I'd love to quote your comment elsewhere, if you don't mind. I find it really sad when some people think that the basic ideas of the Enlightenment are somehow "Western". They originated in the West, but they are absolutely and in no way linked to any notion of "Western culture". As some that's mildly libertarian leaning, I'd say the core ideals of Enlightenment are universal moral principles that are objectively good, and workable for any human society. For example, the principle of free speech boils down to this simple concept: Don't commit acts of violence against someone because they __said__ something you don't like (with emphasis on "said"). This is not a hard concept to grasp. When some culture claims that such a principle (like free speech) is not "compatible" with their culture, it's a cop-out, and an excuse for some group of people to continue maintaining power, or something like it.

kobeya 9y ago
> I'd love to quote your comment elsewhere, if you don't mind. Sure. > [the ideas of the Englightenment] originated in the West I would say they first took root and lasted long enough to have impact in the West. As you say, the ideas of the Enlightenment are universal moral principles that aren't really tied to specific culture, a sort of political version of the Golden Rule. It might even have been the state of nature before agriculture and townships gave rise to kingships and states. We didn't used to be slaves to The Man. To harp on the theme of this thread, things could have gone very differently if Mo Di's philosophy became the official state belief instead of Confucius' legalism: https://www.ancient.eu/Mo_Ti/ https://www.ancient.eu/Mo_Ti/