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Counterpoint: The words he says are nice, and his depth of knowledge is profound, but he hasn't actually provided any evidence making the case that lisp is bet

• pvg 9y ago
  What is that a counterpoint to? He's not saying Lisp is 'better' than language X or that you should write your next world-conquering app in Lisp. He talks about ideas and inventions that can act as a sort of 'force multiplier' in thinking. In his analogies, he points out this applies to both fundamental innovations (Calculus) and innovations in representation (Heaviside formulation of Maxwell's equations). He argues that Lisp is that type of innovation in Computer Science.
• Frondo 9y ago
  Agreed, and well said. I'm very much a pragmatic kind of person, and my unpopular opinion about code is that Lisp is the greatest single language ever designed, if your goal in designing a language is to produce articles proclaiming it as such. And I am sooo sympathetic to the promises Lispers make. I want to believe. But ultimately, show me the code. Why are the stellar Lisp success stories so few and far between that one of the big ones is Paul Graham's from the 90s? If it's so powerful that almost no one can use it, and it rules in almost no problem domains, ... how is it so powerful again?
  • pmoriarty 9y ago
    Lisp's popularity came too early. Lisp really needed some relatively powerful machines to take advantage of it, and when it was actually popular most machines were way too weak for it. Now that machines are finally powerful enough to handle it, it's no longer popular, and it has no army of programmers using it as they are using some of the more popular languages like Java or Javascript. So, yeah, you're unlikely to see that many "killer apps" made with it, as the killer apps of today usually require a lot of programming resources that the Lisp community just doesn't have. What apps Lisp programmers do come up with are mostly not going to be so uniquely Lispish that they couldn't be replicated in another language (see Reddit's rewrite from Lisp to Python[1]). On the other hand, there's Emacs. That's one killer app whose power arguably hasn't been beaten or replicated elsewhere. But that very much depends on your taste -- and if you agree with that you're probably already a Lisp convert. Then there's the whole "worse is better" thing. All sorts of inferior technologies have triumphed in the marketplace -- for reasons that usually have little to do with their technical merits. Lisp has itself been a victim of that. It's a vastly superior language to so many more popular ones out there (and many other language designers agree, if the regularity with which Lisp features are pilfered in to other languages is anything to go on), and yet so many programmers are really ignorant of it or have only been exposed to little toy Lisps in their college years, mistakenly thinking that modern Lisps are no better, don't realize how much their own favorite languages owe to Lisp, nor how much more that their language doesn't have that Lisp has to offer. [1] - https://web.archive.org/web/20051208055316/http://reddit.com/blog/2005/12/on-lisp.html https://web.archive.org/web/20051208055316/http://reddit.com...
    • kobeya 9y ago
      Well, Clojure seems popular.
  • pjmorris 9y ago
    > If it's so powerful that almost no one can use it, and it rules in almost no problem domains, ... how is it so powerful again? Couldn't you substitute calculus, real analysis, or abstract algebra for Lisp in this statement and make the same claim?
  • shiro 9y ago
    Don't confuse lisp-as-an-executable-device-to-think-meta and lisp-as-one-of-programming-language-choices. Alan is talking the former. The idea---not just to think about programs per se, but to think about abstract properties and operations of certain category of programs and to be able to actually write it down---gave the exponential power to you. Lisp was the first such tool as a programming language that allowed you to break the ceiling of first-order thinking. Nowadays there are other languages that provide meta-level tools. And once you get the idea, the language doesn't really matter; you can apply it to any language, albeit you may have to build scaffolds around it to compensate lack of language support (Cf. Greenspun's tenth rule). So, if you already got the idea through other languages, it's good for you. You'll see Lisp as an arcane prototype of modern languages. But note: since Lisp can write meta-level description in the same language as the base language, you can top up this ladder infinitely, meaning you can think of program-generating-program, then program-generating-program-generating-program, and so on, using a single set of tools. It is indeed powerful but somewhat crude, so modern advanced languages intentionally restrict that aspect and just try to cover the sweet spot. Even if you're familiar with metaprogramming, it may still be worth to play with Lisp to see what (meta)*programming is like, to know its pros and cons, and to get the idea that might come handy someday when single-level metaprogramming isn't enough.
• borplk 9y ago
  Like Steve Jobs he is amongst the group of people who could say anything anyway they like and some people will find a way to glorify it by a factor of a million. If you remove their name from the things they have said or written, at least many of them seem fairly average sensible statements, like something you would read here from a random member. I'd be interested to see a "blind test" for these things. I bet the bias would show. As in, display something from Alan Kay but post it on a random internet forum as JoeSchmo11, and you will have lots of people disagreeing with it and tearing it apart without hesitation. But oh look if Steve Jobs or Alan Kay or Elon Musk's name is attached to it suddenly becomes a unique gem of knowledge to be cherished by the humanity for the rest of time and surely the fault lies with anyone not agreeing with it right? Because after all they could not possibly be more right than those authority figures? I'm not making a judgement about this, neither am I surprised by it. Just saying that you should ask yourself exactly how much of your own brain power and judgement do you use to judge the quality of an idea and how much of your conclusion is conveniently borrowed from your image of the author? It reminds me of when Elon Musk talked about the probability of our universe being a simulation. I'm not saying he is right or wrong, just using that as an example. But if JoeSchmo11 said exactly the same thing people would just dismiss it. But when Elon Musk says it all the newspapers go mad and write stories about it. Again I'm not saying it shouldn't be like this, reputation matters, I get it. But my point is that the fact that this happens to the degree that it does is in some ways a sad admission that we are incapable of evaluating thoughts and ideas independently of their originators and on their own merits. Instead we borrow from the past credibility and the authority of the people they are attached to.
  • azag0 9y ago
    That this happens is of course difficult to disprove. My only defense is that very often, I read things from acclaimed people and think "bullshit". I don't have any particular reason to like what Alan Kay says besides having read previously things from him that I liked. Also, in this particular case, my point wasn't really about the truth value of what he claims (which I'm not fit to judge), but about the clarity of how he claims it.
  • mquander 9y ago
    What is the sad admission here? That not everyone establishes 100% of their belief system from first principles, and instead adopts some of it empirically based on other reasoners' beliefs? I don't consider that a bug. If I don't know anything about X, and the Alan Kay of X comes and tells me something about X, it's pretty likely to be true. If equally-ignorant-as-me-person tells me something about X, it's not as likely to be true. That's the meaning of knowledge and ignorance. None of this precludes thinking for yourself about anything. It's just the thing you do in addition to thinking for yourself about it, if you want to have true beliefs.
• Cybiote 9y ago
  I disagree. I found his meaning clear. The core of the essay is that thinking with the right abstractions provides greater boons to reasoning capacity than comparatively trivial differences in human IQ. To make things a bit more concrete, take any game; Go, Poker, Chess. If these were truly (approached as) combinatorial problems then humans could not stand a chance at them. But over time, people have learned patterns, compacted them and shared them such that the average level of play is what masterful players might have once struggled to reach. Lisp provided concepts captured enough structure that it cut through a lot of combinatorial complexity in the space of possibilities, making reasoning about the construction of computer programs and algorithms a lot less random. A complaint might be he left out what aspects of Lisp provided that combinatorial boost but I'm sure many HN users could furnish those reasons. But one easy observation is the sheer number of languages and language concepts that are rooted in it. Newtonian physics is not the best physics but it fundamentally changed the way people reasoned about the world. Lisp is not the best language but it fundamentally changed how people reasoned about computer programs. One objection one might make is that the real Maxwell/Heaviside Equations can instead be found in the Lambda Calculus/ISWIM. Despite the name, Lisp did not originally derive from the lambda calculus but just about all typed functional languages and future versions of lisp are of the LC. But a quick answer to that is influential languages like SASL and Meta Language were prototyped in and strongly influenced by Lisp (cognitive boost).
  • spc476 9y ago
    Godel's Incompleteness Theory states that within an axiomatic system, there are statements that are true that you can't prove true. You can only prove them true if you go up a level. In programming (assuming a "computer language" as an analog to "axiomatic system"), there are abstractions that cannot be implemented. You can only implement them by going up a level. In LISP, you have this "going up a level" ability with macros. The only reason this works for LISP is that the language is written in terms of data LISP can manipulate, meaning you can manipulate code at compile time. Forth has an ability to "go up a level" as well, with a defined way to extend the compiler.
    • hxegon 9y ago
• theyregreat 9y ago
  Yes. It’s similar to the difference between a mechanic and an engineer: a mechanic figures out something works, but the engineer can then take the next step to discover/know how. If someone cannot articulate or identify advantages, then they are pushing unproven, possibly wrong “religious” beliefs like a “mechanic.” Zealous communinal reinforcement is political, Macaroni and silly when there are no convincing arguments other than “because it’s new” or “because.”
• medfok 9y ago
  It's almost like people communicate their experience with words and not benchmarks. The horror!
• wruza 9y ago
  >That this sort of rhetoric is the way almost all programmers and language designers try to find truth and communicate ideas is probably why we ended up all programming in javascript. It sounds like all the knowledge should be delivered right into someone’s mind in a couple of minutes. It is right there, go and learn it for a week at least. When I try to directly convince random internet people that e.g. Lua has better async[1] than js due to language primitive that is more abstract and cannot be reimplemented in lower-order primitives, all I hear is usually butwhys and dontneeds, real data on both sides (at best; at worst they claim this code cannot be asynchronous). Instead, folks stick to cumbersome syntactic methods fitting their evolved familiarity. They don’t need anything beyond js, that’s why there is js. And this is one small step torwards less cognitive load and yet we have a friction. Good luck explaining macros, call/cc, evaluation models, etc to them to the point they actually get it en masse. That said and to be honest, I never mastered lisp skills because it is not actually easy (and I’m not very smart too). You enter the completely new and broad area, where you almost have no clue what you can do. The same would feel a junior entering, say, java after dos basic. But more confusing, because junior has lots of time and is just learning and you’re a professional that “already knows it all” (not really) and has little/no time. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15472204 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15472204