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The key point for me was when Spain announced that they were going to remove Catalonia's autonomy and dissolve its parliament. What did they expect Catalonia to

The key point for me was when Spain announced that they were going to remove Catalonia's autonomy and dissolve its parliament. What did they expect Catalonia to do? This seems like an iconic example of what NOT to do when faced with an independence referendum. Compare the situation in Scotland or Canada, where AIUI the central government grudgingly permitted the referendum, campaigned on the issue locally, and offered symbolic concessions to local autonomy while focusing heavily on the pragmatic risks and costs of independence. In Catalonia by contrast we have plenty of images of the police violently disrupting the referendum and independence protesters, then pledging to end local autonomy altogether.

ethbro 9y ago
I get the sense it's the tail wagging the dog now in Madrid. They scored political points with the rest of the country keeping "those Catalonians" in line. Now that action is required, the rest of the country is so riled up there's little room for compromise.
pvaldes 9y ago
Some people does not understand that the independence referendum is a MacGuffin here. Not the main goal. Is just a symbol of power. Another step to bend the arm of the central government again, not the end of the agenda. Catalonian people had another referendum in 2016, plus one free elections in between. Is insane to keep asking for a referendum each 6 months until independence is forced
- tassl 9y ago
  That's not true. There was no referendum in 2016 and there is no "keep asking for a referendum" because the only referendum held was 1-O, and did not come from an agreement with Spanish government. If Spain would have agreed on a referendum, the current situation would be very different.
  - pvaldes 9y ago
    You are right, it was in november 2014, not 2016. My bad. Time flies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_referendum,_2014 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_ref... Thanks for the correction
alehul 9y ago
You summed it up really well. I think the issue lies in that those central governments have become more tame over time, while Spain hasn't. They were largely united under a dictator where, in the very recent past, it was illegal for Catalans to teach their language or even speak it publicly. Spain realizes the fragility of their position, and they're choosing to lash out in the same way Franco would have.
- pvaldes 9y ago
  > they're choosing to lash out in the same way Franco would have. sigh... Again asking for the blood bath? What really Franco would have done? Well, Franco would have killed hundred-thousands of people. Again. How many Catalonian independentists has been killed by the current spanish government since october? ZE-RO?. Wake-up. Zero is not equal to thousands. Talk seriously or don't talk but please, stop with all this Franco BS. This comparison is insulting for any people with more than two alive brain cells that endured the Franco regime.
  - alehul 9y ago
    Sorry, you seem to have taken my words the wrong way. The overall reaction of "we're going to assume direct control and remove your governmental power" is one of lashing out and entitlement, and an attitude that doesn't work as evidenced by the comment I was responding to concerning the methods other countries have chosen. I meant that this reaction is in a Franco-like, dictatorial direction, not that their reaction is of the same magnitude (on the other side is the UK's replies to Scotland's desire for independence, for example).
    - pvaldes 9y ago
      This is probably because Spain is a sovereign state, and therefore is a different juridical entity. Spain is not UK. Both situations aren't neither correlated nor comparable. In the same way that Londoners can't play with firearms in their backyards arguing than people in Texas can explode things all the time; Catalonians shouldn't enjoy the same level of independence than X merely by the argument than X exists somewhere. The truth is that Catalonia would strongly reject a referendum to achieve the current Scotland status. They enjoy currently much more privileges and freedom to manage their resources at will, than scots can dream.
AnimalMuppet 9y ago
It seems to me that Catalonia has put the rest of Spain in a "no win" situation. If Spain tries to prevent the (unconstitutional) vote, then Catalonia tries very hard to push to have the vote anyway, and Spain either has to enforce their ban on the vote (which means violence), or else back down. If Spain doesn't forbid the vote, then the vote gains legitimacy in public opinion. So either Spain's the bad guy (because violence), or they're a paper tiger, or they tacitly say that it's OK for Catalonia to vote on independence despite what the constitution says.
- panglott 9y ago
  If the referendum has no legal weight, then going to such lengths to quash it instead magnifies its importance, since the Spanish government clearly views it as being more dangerous than it is.

ethbro 9y ago

I get the sense it's the tail wagging the dog now in Madrid. They scored political points with the rest of the country keeping "those Catalonians" in line. Now that action is required, the rest of the country is so riled up there's little room for compromise.

pvaldes 9y ago

Some people does not understand that the independence referendum is a MacGuffin here. Not the main goal. Is just a symbol of power. Another step to bend the arm of the central government again, not the end of the agenda. Catalonian people had another referendum in 2016, plus one free elections in between. Is insane to keep asking for a referendum each 6 months until independence is forced

tassl 9y ago
That's not true. There was no referendum in 2016 and there is no "keep asking for a referendum" because the only referendum held was 1-O, and did not come from an agreement with Spanish government. If Spain would have agreed on a referendum, the current situation would be very different.
- pvaldes 9y ago
  You are right, it was in november 2014, not 2016. My bad. Time flies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_referendum,_2014 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_ref... Thanks for the correction

alehul 9y ago

You summed it up really well. I think the issue lies in that those central governments have become more tame over time, while Spain hasn't. They were largely united under a dictator where, in the very recent past, it was illegal for Catalans to teach their language or even speak it publicly. Spain realizes the fragility of their position, and they're choosing to lash out in the same way Franco would have.

pvaldes 9y ago
> they're choosing to lash out in the same way Franco would have. sigh... Again asking for the blood bath? What really Franco would have done? Well, Franco would have killed hundred-thousands of people. Again. How many Catalonian independentists has been killed by the current spanish government since october? ZE-RO?. Wake-up. Zero is not equal to thousands. Talk seriously or don't talk but please, stop with all this Franco BS. This comparison is insulting for any people with more than two alive brain cells that endured the Franco regime.
- alehul 9y ago
  Sorry, you seem to have taken my words the wrong way. The overall reaction of "we're going to assume direct control and remove your governmental power" is one of lashing out and entitlement, and an attitude that doesn't work as evidenced by the comment I was responding to concerning the methods other countries have chosen. I meant that this reaction is in a Franco-like, dictatorial direction, not that their reaction is of the same magnitude (on the other side is the UK's replies to Scotland's desire for independence, for example).
  - pvaldes 9y ago
    This is probably because Spain is a sovereign state, and therefore is a different juridical entity. Spain is not UK. Both situations aren't neither correlated nor comparable. In the same way that Londoners can't play with firearms in their backyards arguing than people in Texas can explode things all the time; Catalonians shouldn't enjoy the same level of independence than X merely by the argument than X exists somewhere. The truth is that Catalonia would strongly reject a referendum to achieve the current Scotland status. They enjoy currently much more privileges and freedom to manage their resources at will, than scots can dream.

AnimalMuppet 9y ago

It seems to me that Catalonia has put the rest of Spain in a "no win" situation. If Spain tries to prevent the (unconstitutional) vote, then Catalonia tries very hard to push to have the vote anyway, and Spain either has to enforce their ban on the vote (which means violence), or else back down. If Spain doesn't forbid the vote, then the vote gains legitimacy in public opinion. So either Spain's the bad guy (because violence), or they're a paper tiger, or they tacitly say that it's OK for Catalonia to vote on independence despite what the constitution says.

panglott 9y ago
If the referendum has no legal weight, then going to such lengths to quash it instead magnifies its importance, since the Spanish government clearly views it as being more dangerous than it is.