11 ms·

India's Nuclear Scientists Keep Dying Mysteriously (2013)

iaw 9y ago
I wonder if there was any update to this in the last 4 years. >But the most pressing issue isn't who might be behind the murders, but that the Indian government's apathy is potentially putting their high-value staff at even greater risk. Currently, these scientists, who are crucial to the development of India's nuclear programes, whether for energy or security, have "absolutely no protection at all. Nothing, zero," Madhav told me. "Which is amazing for people who are in a such a sensitive program." That strikes me as odd, the possibility not mentioned in the article is that the Indian government is responsible. The behaviors of the Indian government in the article do sound suspicious. I understand not wanting to signal to your scientists the level of danger they're in but, given how valuable an asset these people are to the country, that India would've tried to protect them if it was aware at all of a threat and not complicit.
- tryingagainbro 9y ago
  I doubt they can ultimately protect them, research takes decades and they want to live normal lives. Even the US Presidents hate their security bubble. Short of putting them in military bases for decades...but even then, a bomb from above will take them out.
  - kobeya 9y ago
    > Short of putting them in military bases for decades... That’s how the successful nuclear programs have done it, from the very beginning.
    - vanattab 9y ago
      Not really, the nuclear physicists were largely allowed to travel freely. I am currently reading (listening to the audable book actually) "The making of the atomic bomb" by Richard Rhodes. I highly recommend the book.
      - kobeya 9y ago
        I didn't interpret that as travel restrictions. Just put them under protection in everyday life, via secret cities.
    - Florin_Andrei 9y ago
      The technology and the engineering side, partially, not the science.
      - kobeya 9y ago
        When people in politics and journalism say "nuclear scientists", that's who they mean.
  - iaw 9y ago
    I dated the granddaughter of a nuclear physicist involved with U.S. government projects. The CIA always watched him and he knew it as part of the job. They wanted to make sure he didn't leak and that he was safe. I'd rather be watched than suicided.
    - tryingagainbro 9y ago
      OK, how many can CIA watch? And isn't the "other" CIA plotting to kill you...cat and mouse? One mistake and you're kaput. If you want a person dead, he's dead: minus a few heads of state that have 10,000 cops when they go to give a speech.
      - XR0CSWV3h3kZWg 9y ago
        Security is always a game of making something expensive enough that your adversary doesn't succeed.
        tryingagainbro 9y ago
        Maybe that's why they have only killed a number of them
- aq3cn 9y ago
  Here is update: > 11 nuclear scientists had unnatural deaths during 2009-13 in the country, latest data provided by Department of Atomic Energy shows. > In one case of Barc, police claims that he committed suicide because of prolonged illness and closed the case while the remaining cases are still under investigation. > Two research fellows at died in a mysterious fire in the chemistry lab of Barc, Trombay in 2010. > A scientist of F-grade was found murdered at his residence in Mumbai. It is suspected that he was strangulated but the murder accused remained untraced till date. > A D-grade scientist at RRCAT also allegedly committed suicide with police closing the case. > Another scientist posted at Kalpakkam allegedly jumped into the sea to end his life in 2013 with the case is still under probe whereas a Mumbai based scientist committed suicide by hanging, with police citing personal reasons for the same. > One scientist allegedly committed suicide by jumping into Kali river in Karwar, Karnataka with police again pointing at personal reasons. From: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/11-nuclear-scientists-died-in-mysterious-circumstances-in-4-years/articleshow/49272275.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/11-nuclear-scienti... similar article from Sunday Guardian newspaper. > Atomic energy department saw 70 unnatural deaths in eight years > The Bhabha Atomic Research Centre alone saw 38 of its officials die unnaturally, primarily because of accidents, between 1 January 2008 and 1 October 2016. From: http://www.sundayguardianlive.com/investigation/7559-atomic-energy-department-saw-70-unnatural-deaths-eight-years http://www.sundayguardianlive.com/investigation/7559-atomic-... PS: You should note that now NDA is the ruling coalition instead of UPA since 2014. Situation is much likely to improve because NDA is pro-nuclear, as they did Pokhran-II in 1998.
  - iaw 9y ago
    Thank you for this.
transverse 9y ago
Isn't it obvious that this is either Pakistan or the CIA at work?
tryingagainbro 9y ago
Iran's too. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/haggai-carmon/iran-nuclear-scientist-killed_b_1206591.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/haggai-carmon/iran-nuclear-sc... http://edition.cnn.com/2012/01/11/world/meast/iran-who-kills-scientists/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2012/01/11/world/meast/iran-who-kills... Another profession not to get into. Thank God my second choice is crab fishing in Alaska. Nukes are the ULTIMATE weapons, expect no mercy from your geopolitical enemies.
- posterboy 9y ago
  as far as i'm aware india has nukes. what would scientists have to improve on that.
  - kobeya 9y ago
    More powerful nukes. Smaller nukes. More nukes per kg of material. Dialable yield nukes. Source obfuscated nukes. Optimal bombing strategies. Interpreting intelligence on foreign powers’ attempts at same.
  - cmurf 9y ago
    U.S. military at one time had plans for nuclear rifles, grenades, nuclear powered airplanes - nukes everywhere. As it was they had live assembled nukes on airplanes flying all over the U.S. and the rest of the world, and there were quite a few accidents. Bombs melting into radioactive slag into the runway when planes caught fire or crashed, (Morocco, UK, various others unreported at the time); bombs crashing into the ground during in flight breakup of the aircraft; bombs unlocked, safety disabled, and literally everything except one thing prevented a nuclear detonation in one of the Carolinas. There are dozens of stories like this in Command and Control: Nuclear Weapons, the Damascus Accident, and the Illusion of Safety the 2013 book, I'm reading now. The 2016 film based on it, I haven't watched. It's the sort of thing that just keeps getting one upped by the next story. It's surprising, even just mid-way through, that we haven't had one go off by accident by now considering how incredibly proflific they were, and poorly handled. And the ignoramus in the White House wants more of them.
t1o5 9y ago
Not only India's. Any developing country's nuclear scientists are either missing, given citizenship in a first world country or "went abroad" for research. There are many actors who do not want developing countries to progress in anyway. Be it nuclear,social or economic. China is a good example in resisting these warfares/sabotages by foreign actors. They have effectively controlled foreign actors in meddling with their social & economic aspects (controlling fake news, social engineering by controlling the internet). Supporting homegrown technology companies than foreign ones. India should follow the same.
- kobeya 9y ago
  > India should follow the same. I hope not. Just because it is effective doesn’t mean it is right.
  - t1o5 9y ago
    Though this does not appeal to the pro west crowd. If you have noticed, recently there is this anti China sentiment floating around on the internet and even on hackernews as well. This IMO is purposefully engineering to make China look bad, because they have had huge progress lately. China has effectively blocked all these social conditioning tactics from their population by wielding a greater control over the internet. It is effective and it is right for their progress as a nation. If India starts to make progress, India will also be targeted. In a country divided by many languages and cultures, India is very vulnerable for social conditioning. The case of missing nuclear scientists is one of them.
    - secfirstmd 9y ago
      "It is effective and it is right for their progress as a nation."................I'm sorry, what? What about all the journalists and activists who are arrested, harassed, tortured and disappeared in China? Is it right for their progress?
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
Apocryphon 9y ago
Could this just be weird statistical patterns? See other ones: microbiologists post-9/11 http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/deadbiologists.html http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/deadbiologists... Russian diplomats https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/03/07/is-a-grand-conspiracy-killing-russian-diplomats-or-is-it-demographics/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/03/07/i...
- hidenotslide 9y ago
  If by statistical pattern you mean that political enemies of Putin are statistically more likely to be assassinated. https://extranewsfeed.com/the-trail-of-dead-russians-da27ee4a2bdc https://extranewsfeed.com/the-trail-of-dead-russians-da27ee4... Erovinkin in particular is generally considered a key source in the Steele dossier.
cmurf 9y ago
The United States recruited (or even pilfered) Nazi Germany's nuclear and aerospace engineers. Wanna bet they'd have had them killed if they hadn't agreed? Israel did it with both Iraq and Iran's nuclear engineers.
- rajathagasthya 9y ago
  The CIA has been known for its attempts at sabotaging Indian nuclear weapons efforts around '74 and '98 tests. One conspiracy theory is that CIA killed Homi Bhabha, considered the father of Indian nuclear program, in a plane crash.
aq3cn 9y ago
> 11 nuclear scientists had unnatural deaths during 2009-13 in the country, latest data provided by Department of Atomic Energy shows. > In one case of Barc, police claims that he committed suicide because of prolonged illness and closed the case while the remaining cases are still under investigation. > Two research fellows at died in a mysterious fire in the chemistry lab of Barc, Trombay in 2010. > A scientist of F-grade was found murdered at his residence in Mumbai. It is suspected that he was strangulated but the murder accused remained untraced till date. > A D-grade scientist at RRCAT also allegedly committed suicide with police closing the case. > Another scientist posted at Kalpakkam allegedly jumped into the sea to end his life in 2013 with the case is still under probe whereas a Mumbai based scientist committed suicide by hanging, with police citing personal reasons for the same. > One scientist allegedly committed suicide by jumping into Kali river in Karwar, Karnataka with police again pointing at personal reasons. From: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/11-nuclear-scientists-died-in-mysterious-circumstances-in-4-years/articleshow/49272275.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/11-nuclear-scienti... similar article from Sunday Guardian newspaper. > Atomic energy department saw 70 unnatural deaths in eight years > The Bhabha Atomic Research Centre alone saw 38 of its officials die unnaturally, primarily because of accidents, between 1 January 2008 and 1 October 2016. From: http://www.sundayguardianlive.com/investigation/7559-atomic-energy-department-saw-70-unnatural-deaths-eight-years http://www.sundayguardianlive.com/investigation/7559-atomic-... Now compare the noise made in those cases with noise made in following incidents. Gauri Lankesh Murder: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/13/opinion/gauri-lankesh-india-dead.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/13/opinion/gauri-lankesh-ind... https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/who-is-next-killing-of-indian-journalist-gauri-lankesh-sparks-protests/2017/09/06/e0f2e6f8-9271-11e7-8482-8dc9a7af29f9_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/who-is-nex... http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-41169817 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-41169817 https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/gauri-lankeshs-death-bengaluru-on-high-alert/articleshow/60386107.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/gauri-lan... Lynching: http://www.indiatomorrow.net/eng/killers-of-pahlu-khan-should-be-prosecuted-under-terror-laws-swami-agnivesh http://www.indiatomorrow.net/eng/killers-of-pahlu-khan-shoul... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/29/world/asia/india-lynchings-attacks-on-muslims.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/29/world/asia/india-lynching... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/05/world/asia/india-cow-mob-hindu-vigilantes.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/05/world/asia/india-cow-mob-... Of course leftists(Maoists?) are controlling the media narrative in India, otherwise it is just not possible that death of seventy scientists from Bhabha would go unnoticed, whereas deaths which are potential source of political mileage and further polarization in society, will cause international noise. Assuming NDA government to be pro-Nuclear power, as it was NDA government at the time of PM Vajpai who did Pokhran-II, I am sure that nuclear scientists will be provided critical security.

iaw 9y ago

I wonder if there was any update to this in the last 4 years. >But the most pressing issue isn't who might be behind the murders, but that the Indian government's apathy is potentially putting their high-value staff at even greater risk. Currently, these scientists, who are crucial to the development of India's nuclear programes, whether for energy or security, have "absolutely no protection at all. Nothing, zero," Madhav told me. "Which is amazing for people who are in a such a sensitive program." That strikes me as odd, the possibility not mentioned in the article is that the Indian government is responsible. The behaviors of the Indian government in the article do sound suspicious. I understand not wanting to signal to your scientists the level of danger they're in but, given how valuable an asset these people are to the country, that India would've tried to protect them if it was aware at all of a threat and not complicit.

tryingagainbro 9y ago
I doubt they can ultimately protect them, research takes decades and they want to live normal lives. Even the US Presidents hate their security bubble. Short of putting them in military bases for decades...but even then, a bomb from above will take them out.
- kobeya 9y ago
  > Short of putting them in military bases for decades... That’s how the successful nuclear programs have done it, from the very beginning.
  - vanattab 9y ago
    Not really, the nuclear physicists were largely allowed to travel freely. I am currently reading (listening to the audable book actually) "The making of the atomic bomb" by Richard Rhodes. I highly recommend the book.
    - kobeya 9y ago
      I didn't interpret that as travel restrictions. Just put them under protection in everyday life, via secret cities.
  - Florin_Andrei 9y ago
    The technology and the engineering side, partially, not the science.
    - kobeya 9y ago
      When people in politics and journalism say "nuclear scientists", that's who they mean.
- iaw 9y ago
  I dated the granddaughter of a nuclear physicist involved with U.S. government projects. The CIA always watched him and he knew it as part of the job. They wanted to make sure he didn't leak and that he was safe. I'd rather be watched than suicided.
  - tryingagainbro 9y ago
    OK, how many can CIA watch? And isn't the "other" CIA plotting to kill you...cat and mouse? One mistake and you're kaput. If you want a person dead, he's dead: minus a few heads of state that have 10,000 cops when they go to give a speech.
    - XR0CSWV3h3kZWg 9y ago
      Security is always a game of making something expensive enough that your adversary doesn't succeed.
      - tryingagainbro 9y ago
        Maybe that's why they have only killed a number of them
aq3cn 9y ago
Here is update: > 11 nuclear scientists had unnatural deaths during 2009-13 in the country, latest data provided by Department of Atomic Energy shows. > In one case of Barc, police claims that he committed suicide because of prolonged illness and closed the case while the remaining cases are still under investigation. > Two research fellows at died in a mysterious fire in the chemistry lab of Barc, Trombay in 2010. > A scientist of F-grade was found murdered at his residence in Mumbai. It is suspected that he was strangulated but the murder accused remained untraced till date. > A D-grade scientist at RRCAT also allegedly committed suicide with police closing the case. > Another scientist posted at Kalpakkam allegedly jumped into the sea to end his life in 2013 with the case is still under probe whereas a Mumbai based scientist committed suicide by hanging, with police citing personal reasons for the same. > One scientist allegedly committed suicide by jumping into Kali river in Karwar, Karnataka with police again pointing at personal reasons. From: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/11-nuclear-scientists-died-in-mysterious-circumstances-in-4-years/articleshow/49272275.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/11-nuclear-scienti... similar article from Sunday Guardian newspaper. > Atomic energy department saw 70 unnatural deaths in eight years > The Bhabha Atomic Research Centre alone saw 38 of its officials die unnaturally, primarily because of accidents, between 1 January 2008 and 1 October 2016. From: http://www.sundayguardianlive.com/investigation/7559-atomic-energy-department-saw-70-unnatural-deaths-eight-years http://www.sundayguardianlive.com/investigation/7559-atomic-... PS: You should note that now NDA is the ruling coalition instead of UPA since 2014. Situation is much likely to improve because NDA is pro-nuclear, as they did Pokhran-II in 1998.
- iaw 9y ago
  Thank you for this.

transverse 9y ago

Isn't it obvious that this is either Pakistan or the CIA at work?

tryingagainbro 9y ago

Iran's too. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/haggai-carmon/iran-nuclear-scientist-killed_b_1206591.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/haggai-carmon/iran-nuclear-sc... http://edition.cnn.com/2012/01/11/world/meast/iran-who-kills-scientists/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2012/01/11/world/meast/iran-who-kills... Another profession not to get into. Thank God my second choice is crab fishing in Alaska. Nukes are the ULTIMATE weapons, expect no mercy from your geopolitical enemies.

posterboy 9y ago
as far as i'm aware india has nukes. what would scientists have to improve on that.
- kobeya 9y ago
  More powerful nukes. Smaller nukes. More nukes per kg of material. Dialable yield nukes. Source obfuscated nukes. Optimal bombing strategies. Interpreting intelligence on foreign powers’ attempts at same.
- cmurf 9y ago
  U.S. military at one time had plans for nuclear rifles, grenades, nuclear powered airplanes - nukes everywhere. As it was they had live assembled nukes on airplanes flying all over the U.S. and the rest of the world, and there were quite a few accidents. Bombs melting into radioactive slag into the runway when planes caught fire or crashed, (Morocco, UK, various others unreported at the time); bombs crashing into the ground during in flight breakup of the aircraft; bombs unlocked, safety disabled, and literally everything except one thing prevented a nuclear detonation in one of the Carolinas. There are dozens of stories like this in Command and Control: Nuclear Weapons, the Damascus Accident, and the Illusion of Safety the 2013 book, I'm reading now. The 2016 film based on it, I haven't watched. It's the sort of thing that just keeps getting one upped by the next story. It's surprising, even just mid-way through, that we haven't had one go off by accident by now considering how incredibly proflific they were, and poorly handled. And the ignoramus in the White House wants more of them.

t1o5 9y ago

Not only India's. Any developing country's nuclear scientists are either missing, given citizenship in a first world country or "went abroad" for research. There are many actors who do not want developing countries to progress in anyway. Be it nuclear,social or economic. China is a good example in resisting these warfares/sabotages by foreign actors. They have effectively controlled foreign actors in meddling with their social & economic aspects (controlling fake news, social engineering by controlling the internet). Supporting homegrown technology companies than foreign ones. India should follow the same.

kobeya 9y ago
> India should follow the same. I hope not. Just because it is effective doesn’t mean it is right.
- t1o5 9y ago
  Though this does not appeal to the pro west crowd. If you have noticed, recently there is this anti China sentiment floating around on the internet and even on hackernews as well. This IMO is purposefully engineering to make China look bad, because they have had huge progress lately. China has effectively blocked all these social conditioning tactics from their population by wielding a greater control over the internet. It is effective and it is right for their progress as a nation. If India starts to make progress, India will also be targeted. In a country divided by many languages and cultures, India is very vulnerable for social conditioning. The case of missing nuclear scientists is one of them.
  - secfirstmd 9y ago
    "It is effective and it is right for their progress as a nation."................I'm sorry, what? What about all the journalists and activists who are arrested, harassed, tortured and disappeared in China? Is it right for their progress?
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]

Apocryphon 9y ago

Could this just be weird statistical patterns? See other ones: microbiologists post-9/11 http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/deadbiologists.html http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/deadbiologists... Russian diplomats https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/03/07/is-a-grand-conspiracy-killing-russian-diplomats-or-is-it-demographics/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/03/07/i...

hidenotslide 9y ago
If by statistical pattern you mean that political enemies of Putin are statistically more likely to be assassinated. https://extranewsfeed.com/the-trail-of-dead-russians-da27ee4a2bdc https://extranewsfeed.com/the-trail-of-dead-russians-da27ee4... Erovinkin in particular is generally considered a key source in the Steele dossier.

cmurf 9y ago

The United States recruited (or even pilfered) Nazi Germany's nuclear and aerospace engineers. Wanna bet they'd have had them killed if they hadn't agreed? Israel did it with both Iraq and Iran's nuclear engineers.

rajathagasthya 9y ago
The CIA has been known for its attempts at sabotaging Indian nuclear weapons efforts around '74 and '98 tests. One conspiracy theory is that CIA killed Homi Bhabha, considered the father of Indian nuclear program, in a plane crash.

aq3cn 9y ago

> 11 nuclear scientists had unnatural deaths during 2009-13 in the country, latest data provided by Department of Atomic Energy shows. > In one case of Barc, police claims that he committed suicide because of prolonged illness and closed the case while the remaining cases are still under investigation. > Two research fellows at died in a mysterious fire in the chemistry lab of Barc, Trombay in 2010. > A scientist of F-grade was found murdered at his residence in Mumbai. It is suspected that he was strangulated but the murder accused remained untraced till date. > A D-grade scientist at RRCAT also allegedly committed suicide with police closing the case. > Another scientist posted at Kalpakkam allegedly jumped into the sea to end his life in 2013 with the case is still under probe whereas a Mumbai based scientist committed suicide by hanging, with police citing personal reasons for the same. > One scientist allegedly committed suicide by jumping into Kali river in Karwar, Karnataka with police again pointing at personal reasons. From: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/11-nuclear-scientists-died-in-mysterious-circumstances-in-4-years/articleshow/49272275.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/11-nuclear-scienti... similar article from Sunday Guardian newspaper. > Atomic energy department saw 70 unnatural deaths in eight years > The Bhabha Atomic Research Centre alone saw 38 of its officials die unnaturally, primarily because of accidents, between 1 January 2008 and 1 October 2016. From: http://www.sundayguardianlive.com/investigation/7559-atomic-energy-department-saw-70-unnatural-deaths-eight-years http://www.sundayguardianlive.com/investigation/7559-atomic-... Now compare the noise made in those cases with noise made in following incidents. Gauri Lankesh Murder: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/13/opinion/gauri-lankesh-india-dead.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/13/opinion/gauri-lankesh-ind... https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/who-is-next-killing-of-indian-journalist-gauri-lankesh-sparks-protests/2017/09/06/e0f2e6f8-9271-11e7-8482-8dc9a7af29f9_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/who-is-nex... http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-41169817 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-41169817 https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/gauri-lankeshs-death-bengaluru-on-high-alert/articleshow/60386107.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/gauri-lan... Lynching: http://www.indiatomorrow.net/eng/killers-of-pahlu-khan-should-be-prosecuted-under-terror-laws-swami-agnivesh http://www.indiatomorrow.net/eng/killers-of-pahlu-khan-shoul... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/29/world/asia/india-lynchings-attacks-on-muslims.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/29/world/asia/india-lynching... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/05/world/asia/india-cow-mob-hindu-vigilantes.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/05/world/asia/india-cow-mob-... Of course leftists(Maoists?) are controlling the media narrative in India, otherwise it is just not possible that death of seventy scientists from Bhabha would go unnoticed, whereas deaths which are potential source of political mileage and further polarization in society, will cause international noise. Assuming NDA government to be pro-Nuclear power, as it was NDA government at the time of PM Vajpai who did Pokhran-II, I am sure that nuclear scientists will be provided critical security.