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You mention democracy and the "tyranny of the majority", but that's exactly what a democracy is, a doubly edged sword. At this point Spain's citizens have the r

You mention democracy and the "tyranny of the majority", but that's exactly what a democracy is, a doubly edged sword. At this point Spain's citizens have the right to determine Catalonia's fate, just as the people living there. Not saying that democracy is an end goal and should be protected against all odds, but if you don't like how democracy works, you're free to propose an alternative. > "pay the price for living in a civilized society" or you end up in an armed battle But that's how it has always been. In general the state has sovereignty over its territory, which is in general considered to be indivisible. And this is a civilized society, because in such a case people would hang for treason only a couple of hundred years ago. If I can proclaim my own bedroom to be independent, making up my own flag, then what's the point of having countries with borders and a Constitution? > "oh okay - I'll stop using nationally-funded roads and you can stop taking my money to start wars elsewhere." Well, that would be nice, except that you're also occupying a land that belongs to all citizens of that country, being your "property" only because the country's constitution allows it. If you're no longer willing to uphold that constitution, if you want to be free from the state's rule and laws, then it's no longer your land, unless you're able to defend it. So unless you have an army at your disposal, your only choice is either to bend over, or to move to another country, as people are in general free to seek their happiness elsewhere — unless you live in an isolated country that has closed its borders completely, like what happened in the Soviet block, in which case you're fucked, so I'm personally happy with the status quo.

TallGuyShort 9y ago
> If I can proclaim my own bedroom to be independent, making up my own flag, then what's the point of having countries with borders and a Constitution? That's actually a very good question. If Catalonia can claim itself to be independent and make up it's own flag, then what's the point of having Spain include it within its borders and govern it with it's Constitution? I think there are some very obvious answers to "why we need government", and "why Spain should exist". But if the costs start outweighing the benefits of those answers, and the people stop being able to answer that question to themselves, the government either needs to check itself, or the people should be free to leave. >> if you want to be free from the state's rule and laws, then it's no longer your land, unless you're able to defend it. And that's why we have civil wars, and they're horrible and should be avoided at all costs. If Spain chooses civil war over finding a peaceful way to satisfy Catalonian separatists (if that's what they're being called? Not sure), I call that a failure. > if you don't like how democracy works, you're free to propose an alternative On HN, yes, and I've been a part of good conversations along those lines. If Catalonia doesn't like how democracy works, are they free propose an alternative? Their vote's not perfect either, but they're not seeing many good, peaceful alternatives.

TallGuyShort 9y ago

> If I can proclaim my own bedroom to be independent, making up my own flag, then what's the point of having countries with borders and a Constitution? That's actually a very good question. If Catalonia can claim itself to be independent and make up it's own flag, then what's the point of having Spain include it within its borders and govern it with it's Constitution? I think there are some very obvious answers to "why we need government", and "why Spain should exist". But if the costs start outweighing the benefits of those answers, and the people stop being able to answer that question to themselves, the government either needs to check itself, or the people should be free to leave. >> if you want to be free from the state's rule and laws, then it's no longer your land, unless you're able to defend it. And that's why we have civil wars, and they're horrible and should be avoided at all costs. If Spain chooses civil war over finding a peaceful way to satisfy Catalonian separatists (if that's what they're being called? Not sure), I call that a failure. > if you don't like how democracy works, you're free to propose an alternative On HN, yes, and I've been a part of good conversations along those lines. If Catalonia doesn't like how democracy works, are they free propose an alternative? Their vote's not perfect either, but they're not seeing many good, peaceful alternatives.