4 ms·

> Catalunia becoming independent would have consequences throughout the country, shouldn't everybody get to vote? That's a strange argument. Should the other m

> Catalunia becoming independent would have consequences throughout the country, shouldn't everybody get to vote? That's a strange argument. Should the other member states of the EU have gotten to vote on Brexit?

simias 9y ago
Brexit was made possible by article 50 of the treaty on european union[1]. This article was introduced by the treaty of Lisbon[2] which was approved by the european parliament and ratified by all EU members. So while only UK citizens got to vote on brexit the legal possibility to exit the union was actually approved by all the EU members. If there was an article in the spanish constitution that allowed for a region to secede under certain conditions we wouldn't be having this discussion. Furthermore the UK always remained a sovereign state, with its own currency, army etc... It's hardly comparable to Catalunya. The scottish referendum would be a better comparison. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_50_of_the_Treaty_on_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_50_of_the_Treaty_on_Eu... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon
- gonvaled 9y ago
  And that is exactly the problem. A state constitution which is unable to adapt to a changing society is destined to irrelevance. Authority emanates from people, not from papers.
  - simias 9y ago
    I'm not sure I understand your point. Do you think the majority of spaniards would support amending the constitution to allow for a region to declare independence? Seems really dubious to me. And if not, then why blame the constitution?
    - gonvaled 9y ago
      I mean a Constitution is not, and must not be, respected if it goes against the will of a big part of the population. A state constitution must offer a framework which is interesting for all of its peoples and territories: if big groups of people do not see the point of it, it looses its validity.
  - bad_user 9y ago
    No dude, authority emanates from armies, which are never irrelevant. And the writing is on the wall. I hope the Catalans that voted to leave have really good reasons to do it, because if the situation isn't defused somehow, there are some tough times ahead.
    - gonvaled 9y ago
      That is true for primitive societies. Modern, civiliced societies do not resort to violence when they lose the war of words and persuassion. It is not clear we are in a modern era.
logfromblammo 9y ago
The people of Catalonia vote on whether they are willing to fight for their independence. The people in the rest of Spain can vote on whether they are willing to force that fight to take place. An EU vote on Brexit would make no sense, as one or more of the countries would have to withdraw from NATO in order for a war to occur. The unlikelihood of war among NATO members is probably one of the reasons why exit procedures exist in the first place--the other notable reason being that some countries never would have joined in the first place, if they thought they would have to fight their way out. Spain, on the other hand, has apparently never been shy about fighting Spaniards. It might be appropriate for Spain to hold a vote, but only to show Catalonia what it may be up against, and a "no" vote gives the national government a mandate to be brutal. They can, of course, be just as brutal after a "yes" vote, but the propaganda budget would be higher.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > An EU vote on Brexit would make no sense, as one or more of the countries would have to withdraw from NATO in order for a war to occur. No, it might be that, if a war occurred either NATO would cease to exist as a credible alliance or one or more countries would be expelled from it and find themselves at war with it, but certainly withdrawal from NATO isn't a necessary precondition for war.

simias 9y ago

Brexit was made possible by article 50 of the treaty on european union[1]. This article was introduced by the treaty of Lisbon[2] which was approved by the european parliament and ratified by all EU members. So while only UK citizens got to vote on brexit the legal possibility to exit the union was actually approved by all the EU members. If there was an article in the spanish constitution that allowed for a region to secede under certain conditions we wouldn't be having this discussion. Furthermore the UK always remained a sovereign state, with its own currency, army etc... It's hardly comparable to Catalunya. The scottish referendum would be a better comparison. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_50_of_the_Treaty_on_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_50_of_the_Treaty_on_Eu... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon

gonvaled 9y ago
And that is exactly the problem. A state constitution which is unable to adapt to a changing society is destined to irrelevance. Authority emanates from people, not from papers.
- simias 9y ago
  I'm not sure I understand your point. Do you think the majority of spaniards would support amending the constitution to allow for a region to declare independence? Seems really dubious to me. And if not, then why blame the constitution?
  - gonvaled 9y ago
    I mean a Constitution is not, and must not be, respected if it goes against the will of a big part of the population. A state constitution must offer a framework which is interesting for all of its peoples and territories: if big groups of people do not see the point of it, it looses its validity.
- bad_user 9y ago
  No dude, authority emanates from armies, which are never irrelevant. And the writing is on the wall. I hope the Catalans that voted to leave have really good reasons to do it, because if the situation isn't defused somehow, there are some tough times ahead.
  - gonvaled 9y ago
    That is true for primitive societies. Modern, civiliced societies do not resort to violence when they lose the war of words and persuassion. It is not clear we are in a modern era.

logfromblammo 9y ago

The people of Catalonia vote on whether they are willing to fight for their independence. The people in the rest of Spain can vote on whether they are willing to force that fight to take place. An EU vote on Brexit would make no sense, as one or more of the countries would have to withdraw from NATO in order for a war to occur. The unlikelihood of war among NATO members is probably one of the reasons why exit procedures exist in the first place--the other notable reason being that some countries never would have joined in the first place, if they thought they would have to fight their way out. Spain, on the other hand, has apparently never been shy about fighting Spaniards. It might be appropriate for Spain to hold a vote, but only to show Catalonia what it may be up against, and a "no" vote gives the national government a mandate to be brutal. They can, of course, be just as brutal after a "yes" vote, but the propaganda budget would be higher.

dragonwriter 9y ago
> An EU vote on Brexit would make no sense, as one or more of the countries would have to withdraw from NATO in order for a war to occur. No, it might be that, if a war occurred either NATO would cease to exist as a credible alliance or one or more countries would be expelled from it and find themselves at war with it, but certainly withdrawal from NATO isn't a necessary precondition for war.