5 ms·

It's not true, they haven't declared independence. This is a resolution proposal, which means it's not a law and it has no legal value (I mean, not even from th

It's not true, they haven't declared independence. This is a resolution proposal, which means it's not a law and it has no legal value (I mean, not even from the point of view of a pro-independence judge/lawyer). It's a proposal asking the Catalan government to declare independence. But it's fulfilling its purpose, which is to escalate things in a political sense while maintaining the status-quo in the legal realm: it's a provocation to the Spanish government, seeking an over-reaction from the Spanish government, with the aim to maintain the moral victory over Spain in the matter of independence.

andrewla 9y ago
My understanding from these articles is that the referendum was that -- a resolution proposal. But the most recent vote (70 for, 10 against, 2 abstains, out of 135 representatives) is a direct declaration of independence. I don't speak Spanish and I can't find any primary sources on it, but this is what all the news sources that I have seen are saying. If you have more information or citations, I'd love to see them. Here are some sources saying it was a declaration of independence: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/27/spanish-government-demands-special-powers-could-remove-catalan/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/27/spanish-governmen... https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/a-day-of-fireworks-in-catalonia-both-spanish-and-catalan-parliaments-are-scheduled-to-convene/2017/10/27/09685d34-ba90-11e7-9b93-b97043e57a22_story.html?utm_term=.153dbe2aaa0c https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/a-day-of-fireworks-in-c... http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41771294 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41771294 Also, (sigh), the twitter-based declaration from the government of Catalan itself: https://twitter.com/i/web/status/923908635520053248 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/923908635520053248
- Findeton 9y ago
  It's a declaration of independence, approved in a resolution proposal, which means it's a petition to the Catalan government, not a law or anything like that. Which means it hasn't changed the legal body at all. The Catalan government could also ignore the petition, as it's not a binding mandate, just a petition. My sources? I am Spanish and I have friends who are lawyers. EDIT: You mention the Catalan Gov's twitter. Well, of course, they will say whatever they want. Their aim is to provoke the Spanish government.
  - andrewla 9y ago
    I'm unclear on who exactly you're saying the players are here. I though that this vote was undertaken by the Catalan Government -- namely, the parliament. Are these distinct organizations? Who, exactly, are you saying the Catalan Parliament is petitioning?
    - Findeton 9y ago
      The Catalan Parliament and the Catalan Government are very distinct bodies. The Catalan Parliament is just like congress in the US: it also includes representatives of the opposition. They are the lawmakers. The Catalan Gov is the body that applies laws and it includes no member from the opposition. Yes, the Catalan Parliament is petitioning. At least in the formal legal realm.
      - Ajedi32 9y ago
        So legally, does the Catalan Government have to comply with that petition? And if not, wouldn't that mean the Catalan Parliament doesn't actually have any real authority? Or is there some other legal mechanism they could use to force the Catalan Government to comply?
        Findeton 9y ago
        The executive branch, the "Catalan Government", doesn't have to comply with that petition, because resolution proposals are non-binding. The Catalan Parliament _does_ have real authority, because they have the legal authority to pass/approve laws (which a resolution proposal is not), and those laws are of course legally binding. It's just that the parliament, in this case, has decided not to approve a law but a resolution proposal. Of course, they chose so to cover themselves and reduce the personal legal risks/repercussions for congressmen of approving this so-called "declaration of independence". Also the vote was secret because of that reason.
  - Ajedi32 9y ago
    I'm confused. A petition to the Catalan government, by the Catalan parliament? They're petitioning themselves?
andrewla 9y ago
So I found [1] which appears to contain the actual text used in the resolution. > CONSTITUÏM la República catalana, com a Estat independent i sobirà, de dret, democràtic i social. Which Google translates as > WE CONSTITUTE THE Catalan Republic, as an independent and sovereign State, of social and democratic law. It certainly sounds like a declaration of independence. Since the very act of making the declaration is de jure illegal, it's not clear to me that there's a formality that must be observed for this to be made more "official". [1] http://www.elpuntavui.cat/politica/article/17-politica/1269622-constituim-la-republica-catalana-com-a-estat-independent-i-sobira.html http://www.elpuntavui.cat/politica/article/17-politica/12696...
- Findeton 9y ago
  It's inside a preamble/preface of what is basically a non-law proposal. If a preamble inside a law has no normative effect, a preamble in a non-law proposal (asking the Catalan government to "please" do something) has the legal effect of a letter to the Three Wise Men.
kgwgk 9y ago
Nothing that they do has legal value. The Catalan government has been acting outside the law for several weeks already.
- Findeton 9y ago
  But I mean that, even under the Catalan separatist view of legality, this resolution is not a law.
  - kgwgk 9y ago
    True. It makes you wonder what are they celebrating then.
    - Findeton 9y ago
      They are probably celebrating their nationalism.

andrewla 9y ago

My understanding from these articles is that the referendum was that -- a resolution proposal. But the most recent vote (70 for, 10 against, 2 abstains, out of 135 representatives) is a direct declaration of independence. I don't speak Spanish and I can't find any primary sources on it, but this is what all the news sources that I have seen are saying. If you have more information or citations, I'd love to see them. Here are some sources saying it was a declaration of independence: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/27/spanish-government-demands-special-powers-could-remove-catalan/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/27/spanish-governmen... https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/a-day-of-fireworks-in-catalonia-both-spanish-and-catalan-parliaments-are-scheduled-to-convene/2017/10/27/09685d34-ba90-11e7-9b93-b97043e57a22_story.html?utm_term=.153dbe2aaa0c https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/a-day-of-fireworks-in-c... http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41771294 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41771294 Also, (sigh), the twitter-based declaration from the government of Catalan itself: https://twitter.com/i/web/status/923908635520053248 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/923908635520053248

Findeton 9y ago
It's a declaration of independence, approved in a resolution proposal, which means it's a petition to the Catalan government, not a law or anything like that. Which means it hasn't changed the legal body at all. The Catalan government could also ignore the petition, as it's not a binding mandate, just a petition. My sources? I am Spanish and I have friends who are lawyers. EDIT: You mention the Catalan Gov's twitter. Well, of course, they will say whatever they want. Their aim is to provoke the Spanish government.
- andrewla 9y ago
  I'm unclear on who exactly you're saying the players are here. I though that this vote was undertaken by the Catalan Government -- namely, the parliament. Are these distinct organizations? Who, exactly, are you saying the Catalan Parliament is petitioning?
  - Findeton 9y ago
    The Catalan Parliament and the Catalan Government are very distinct bodies. The Catalan Parliament is just like congress in the US: it also includes representatives of the opposition. They are the lawmakers. The Catalan Gov is the body that applies laws and it includes no member from the opposition. Yes, the Catalan Parliament is petitioning. At least in the formal legal realm.
    - Ajedi32 9y ago
      So legally, does the Catalan Government have to comply with that petition? And if not, wouldn't that mean the Catalan Parliament doesn't actually have any real authority? Or is there some other legal mechanism they could use to force the Catalan Government to comply?
      - Findeton 9y ago
        The executive branch, the "Catalan Government", doesn't have to comply with that petition, because resolution proposals are non-binding. The Catalan Parliament _does_ have real authority, because they have the legal authority to pass/approve laws (which a resolution proposal is not), and those laws are of course legally binding. It's just that the parliament, in this case, has decided not to approve a law but a resolution proposal. Of course, they chose so to cover themselves and reduce the personal legal risks/repercussions for congressmen of approving this so-called "declaration of independence". Also the vote was secret because of that reason.
- Ajedi32 9y ago
  I'm confused. A petition to the Catalan government, by the Catalan parliament? They're petitioning themselves?

andrewla 9y ago

So I found [1] which appears to contain the actual text used in the resolution. > CONSTITUÏM la República catalana, com a Estat independent i sobirà, de dret, democràtic i social. Which Google translates as > WE CONSTITUTE THE Catalan Republic, as an independent and sovereign State, of social and democratic law. It certainly sounds like a declaration of independence. Since the very act of making the declaration is de jure illegal, it's not clear to me that there's a formality that must be observed for this to be made more "official". [1] http://www.elpuntavui.cat/politica/article/17-politica/1269622-constituim-la-republica-catalana-com-a-estat-independent-i-sobira.html http://www.elpuntavui.cat/politica/article/17-politica/12696...

Findeton 9y ago
It's inside a preamble/preface of what is basically a non-law proposal. If a preamble inside a law has no normative effect, a preamble in a non-law proposal (asking the Catalan government to "please" do something) has the legal effect of a letter to the Three Wise Men.

kgwgk 9y ago

Nothing that they do has legal value. The Catalan government has been acting outside the law for several weeks already.

Findeton 9y ago
But I mean that, even under the Catalan separatist view of legality, this resolution is not a law.
- kgwgk 9y ago
  True. It makes you wonder what are they celebrating then.
  - Findeton 9y ago
    They are probably celebrating their nationalism.