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>>> If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won The UK government thought like you. It allowed the people to vote for Brexit, thinking it wo
by vilmosi 9y ago
>>> If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won
The UK government thought like you.
It allowed the people to vote for Brexit, thinking it would never pass.
And here we are today.
- johnnyfaehell 9y agoThe UK government did exactly that and got a no vote to the Scottish independence. The Brexit vote was full-on farce, people literally had no idea what they were voting yes to. How could they, there was no plan.
- PeachPlum 9y agoThe plan was laid out clearly. The question asked of the electorate was also clear. February 2016 The process for withdrawing from the European Union Presented to Parliament by the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs by Command of Her Majesty https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/504216/The_process_for_withdrawing_from_the_EU_print_ready.pdf https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm... 2.1 The result of the referendum on the UK’s membership of the European Union will be final. The Government would have a democratic duty to give effect to the electorate’s decision. The Prime Minister made clear to the House of Commons that “if the British people vote to leave, there is only one way to bring that about, namely to trigger Article 50 of the Treaties and begin the process of exit, and the British people would rightly expect that to start straight away”. The referendum question, June 2016 : --- Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union? [ ] Remain a member of the European Union [ ] Leave the European Union --- Of the votes cast 51.9% Leave (17,410,742), 48.1% Remain (16,141,241) Electorate 46,501,241 37.4% of the electorate voted to leave 34.7% of the electorate voted to remain
- marcosscriven 9y agoI don’t think it’s valid to claim the non voters in an aggregate 65%. Otherwise you could say 68% of the country didn’t vote to leave. Which presumably means it was a stronger position. Edit - I see you removed that claim.
- PeachPlum 9y agoYes, I was copy pasting my post from elsewhere which was in response to the opposite claim :)
- liberte82 9y ago68% also didn't vote to stay. It always gets silly when you try to make arguments about vote percentages based on the entire population because they always work completely in reverse as well.
- marcosscriven 9y agoAgree entirely, that was my point.
- andrewaylett 9y agoNotice that for all the Catalan low turnout has been hyped, they've actually got a higher proportion of the electorate than voted for Brexit: 43.03% * 91.96% = 39.57%
- dnautics 9y agoAnd they had uniformed thugs trying to prevent the vote outside many of the polling sites. A 40% turnout is remarkable.
- johnnyfaehell 9y ago21 pages, is not a plan. The Scottish independence plan was 500 pages or something. Also, that "plan" merely states they will trigger article 50. Not what they will do after that. Which is the important part of the whole process. There was no talk of soft or hard brexit. No talk of how much it would cost, no talk about anything other than "We'll trigger article 50". Which it actually turned out, the plan was flawed because they legally couldn't do it and had to create a new law.
- dageshi 9y agoThe UK public has historically been one of the most eurosceptic countries in europe and certainly the most eurosceptic in the EU. When given an actual chance to vote on the issue amazingly the British public followed through... who could possibly have seen that coming? The farce is that people who should've known that were somehow shocked by it.
- ealexhudson 9y agoOnly in recent history. Post-war through to the eighties, it was pro-Europe and influential in Europe (at least, the EC, etc.)
- kybernetikos 9y agoFirstly Spain is in no better a condition now than it would have been had it allowed a vote and campaigned and lost. Secondly, a more accurate UK comparison would probably be with the Scottish referendum, which was won by those who wanted to remain part of the UK and so Scotland did remain part of the UK.
- wils1245 9y agoI don’t think that’s true. The violence that occurred on the day of the vote and the uncompromising attitude of the Spanish govenrment likely caused things to escalate more quickly than it would have otherwise.
- tertius 9y ago> It allowed the people Let's remember that it was not against the law of the EU or the UK... So yes I think it should have.
- rayiner 9y agoAnd that’s great. People have a right to self determination. Not just who they vote for, but who votes with them. Without it democracy is a sham.
- justanton 9y agoI wonder what’s your take on Crimea and Russia in this case.
- rayiner 9y agoIf an identifiable geographic region wants to secede, and there is sufficient support among the public, it should be able to do so. Crimea I think falls into that group: 93% voting in favor of joining Russia with 83% turnout.
- rhino369 9y agoI think there needs to be more than just a geographic region. A people have a right to self-determination. I'm not sure if any group of persons should. You need to look at history, ethnicity, language, culture, etc.
- rayiner 9y agoFair point.
- pvg 9y agoHow does it fall in that group? That's a referendum taken out of the blue, just weeks after Russian military takeover of the region.
- michelsonmorley 9y agoPeople also have the right to remain. It is not clear that a majority wants to secede, the percentages are close to 50% though. So want happens with the rest of the people. Besides the independent Catalunya movement does not apply that freedom to its regions and considers Catalunya indivisible (For instance they deny the right of Tarragona to secede an hypothetical Catalunya state https://youtu.be/3eS-j9Wx8lw?t=999 https://youtu.be/3eS-j9Wx8lw?t=999).
- fiblye 9y agoYeah, what a disaster that was. Time to take a step back and reconsider this whole "democracy" sham for what it is. All it does is let the clowns run the circus. And once commoners are voting, who knows what else they'll be doing.
- intended 9y agoOr you know - attribute malice and responsibility to the people spreading fallacies and fanning the flames of discontent for political gain? Matter of fact this should be read as a win for direct democracy and responsibility- you believe that you can get away with your rhetoric ? Well sucks to be you. People liked what you are selling. I think this calls for stronger links between claims and actions. A stronger more automatic contract between the people voting and the people making the claims. I think brexit was a monumentally sad moment, the cross roads between the old world and the new connected world. The resulting decisions based on emotions and a super biased media system results in brexit. The media helps spread junk for political points and as revenue, and the new political class believes that they can get away with it. A belief bubble that requires treatment - via holding people to task for the words they used. Bah. Who am I kidding. If it was so easy - it would have been done already