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> If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won They could have also lost in that case. There has been a huge for-independance campaign spannin

> If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won They could have also lost in that case. There has been a huge for-independance campaign spanning 20+ years and including indoctrination of former children that now can vote. The last governments should not have ignored the problem, making instead an effort to provide objective information on what an independence entails. This is not something that you can level with a couple of months of "No" campaign. My take on this is that we end up having to open a process to change the Constitution with an ensemble of unprepared politicians (on all sides of the table) that blocks the country for a couple of years (for reference, we have recently spent 18 months with a government in functions because we could not manage to vote the new president). EDIT: It seems that some people didn't like "indoctrination". Ignore the word, my comment remains the same: education has been strongly focused on building a Catalan identity. It is not something that you level in a short term campaign. In Rajoy's shoes, this is something against his position.

_jal 9y ago
> indoctrination of former children that now can vote. That's an odd way to refer to that thing parents do when raising their kids. We call it 'talking' to them. You make it sound so sinister - almost like parents were passing on their religion or something.
- gonvaled 9y ago
  Only the other side indoctrinates, didn´t you know that!?
  - ben_w 9y ago
    It’s one of those irregular verbs, isn’t it? I pass on my values, you tell fairytales, they indoctrinate their young.
    - gonvaled 9y ago
      Excellent! Do you have more irregular verbs?
      - ben_w 9y ago
        How about: * I am religious, you are holier-than-thou, they are extremist fundamentalists * I am sexually experienced, you are kinky, they are being charged under section 70 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 * I write self-documenting code, you need more comments, their code is unreadable
  - nobodyorother 9y ago
    Hey, that sounds like the sort of thing an indoctrinated othersider would say...
- harperlee 9y ago
  Well I am referring to public schools. Public schools are controlled by the local government, and there are lots of complaints that options for parents that want teaching in Spanish for their children, for example, are close to non-existing. The teaching language is mandatorily Catalan until age 12, and then onwards chosen by the teacher, which is appointed by the local government. If you want education that resembles what is taught in public schools of the rest of the country, you need to pay for it.
  - phaemon 9y ago
    That seems reasonable enough. If you're going to live in Catelonia, then it seems right that you should learn Catalan. How exactly is learning a language "indoctrination"? Are children indoctrinated when they're taught through Spanish?
    - alvatar 9y ago
      It's not limited to that. I agree that you should be able to learn in Catalan (but have the option of Spanish too). Visit the Catalan wikipedia, and you'll see how History is changed there with respect other Wikipedias. Read their books to see the bias in the way History is told. Indoctrination is a message with a "them and us" message that polarizes society, and has successfully done so. We all know words can be used in ways that can build a way of thinking of a generation. Well, those words are in the education system.
      - phaemon 9y ago
        Once again, vague accusations with no concrete examples. I'm not convinced. Sounds like you just have a bias against Catalonia.
        alvatar 9y ago
        I do have a bias against independentism/nationalism because I've lived through it. I cannot give concrete documents about this because there aren't such. Contrary to police violence of which there are. You don't have to be convinced, I'm just trying to express my opinion, not trying to convince anyone of who is better or worse here. But I can confidently assert that there are no "good and bad" in this story, just a war between two different stories with lots of falsehoods in both sides.
- gepi79 9y ago
  Because "national pride" and "duty to fight for (economic) freedom" can be taught by your parents, schools and local culture as noble, absolute values and goals unrelated to any reason and discussion.
sigotirandolas 9y ago
Do you have any proof about indoctrination of children beyond mere anecdote, hearsay, or accusations from unionist organizations? The indoctrination argument is an argument that just got popular recently for usage by unionists, but was almost unheard before. As far as I know, it hasn’t been validated by court on any occasion.
- DiThi 9y ago
  Maybe this? http://www.ames-fps.com/adoctrinamiento_libros_sociales_5y6primaria_cataluna.pdf http://www.ames-fps.com/adoctrinamiento_libros_sociales_5y6p... Or maybe the many accusations of events like this one http://baluartedigital.opennemas.com/articulo/separatismo/video-asi-fomentan-hispanofofia-escuelas-catalanas/20161208054918006171.html http://baluartedigital.opennemas.com/articulo/separatismo/vi...
  - sigotirandolas 9y ago
    The first link seems to be the most solid proof that unionist parties like Ciudadanos use to ask for investigating the Catalan school system for indoctrination (An investigation I think could be done, as long as there's enough guarantees that it will be impartial and not a witchhunt). It was made by a syndicate that seems to be pretty much nonexistent (see https://www.ara.cat/societat/denuncia-ladoctrinament-llibres-sindicat-delegats_0_1798620299.html https://www.ara.cat/societat/denuncia-ladoctrinament-llibres... ; yes, I know Ara is a biased source), and has been criticized (see http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20170518/422719728704/sindicato-ustec-stes-denuncia-falsedades-en-informe-ames-de-libros-de-texto.html http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20170518/422719728704/s...). Of course, this is just an argument by authority; but if you look at the content, it's pretty clear that many of the supposed instances of bias are just factual reports that the report argues are instances of bias, but the way to eliminate that bias seems to be that it should be reminding the kids about the existence and goodness of Spain at every turn. For example, end of page 17, the textbook says: "On 1700, the spanish king Charles II died without sons. Charles of Austria and Philip of Bourbon were the two candidates at the throne. The two sides fought in Succession War (1702-1714), which Philip won. Then, Philip V promulgated, as the new king, the Nueva Planta decrees (1716), which suppressed the laws and institutions of Catalonia, banned the use of catalan, and imposed the laws of Castille." The report then goes to argue that "this presents the king of Spain as an unjust person that hates Catalonia". End of page 15, start of 16, the textbook says: "Barcelona is the capital of both the autonomous community of Catalonia and of the province with the same name". The report argues that "this presents Barcelona as the capital of Catalonia, as if it were the capital of a state, not as a city in a state with another capital" [when the textbook clearly says "Autonomous community of Catalonia"] And on and on and on... The second link fits into what I consider anecdote - a single case, that cannot be extrapolated to be evidence of a general case. See my other comment in this thread for a more elaborated response.
d4rti 9y ago
> They could have also lost in that case. There has been a huge for-independance campaign spanning 20+ years and including indoctrination of former children that now can vote. By which you mean adults? Is indoctrination one of those irregular verbs? * i convince * you indoctrinate * he is brainwashing
jobu 9y ago
The counter protests and polling indicate that there was/is significant opposition to Catalan independence. Spain could've embraced and supported that opposition, or pushed for more negotiation, but instead they used violence and oppression to try stopping the vote. That kept most of the anti-independence voters away from the polls, and it also turned many moderates toward independence. Now the Catalan government has a huge mandate and even more support to push for independence. The Spanish government fucked up massively, and I wish the EU had more power to step in and moderate the situation.
- dnautics 9y ago
  The EU does have the power, they don't have the guts, because the governing institutions are set up to be run by spineless bureaucrats that 'know better than the citizenry'. The solution then is to procrastinate on doing anything difficult and hope it goes away like a bad dream, nobody's job is in danger anyways.
icebraining 9y ago
(6) is misleading; the president of PP (the party of the central government) in Catalonia has himself asked for a secret vote recently[1], hoping for defections in the pro-independence groups. Yet a few hours later he calls them cowards for having a secret vote. [1] https://twitter.com/elsmatins/status/923815123260772357 https://twitter.com/elsmatins/status/923815123260772357 (you'll notice it was retweeted by Albiol himself)

_jal 9y ago

> indoctrination of former children that now can vote. That's an odd way to refer to that thing parents do when raising their kids. We call it 'talking' to them. You make it sound so sinister - almost like parents were passing on their religion or something.

gonvaled 9y ago
Only the other side indoctrinates, didn´t you know that!?
- ben_w 9y ago
  It’s one of those irregular verbs, isn’t it? I pass on my values, you tell fairytales, they indoctrinate their young.
  - gonvaled 9y ago
    Excellent! Do you have more irregular verbs?
    - ben_w 9y ago
      How about: * I am religious, you are holier-than-thou, they are extremist fundamentalists * I am sexually experienced, you are kinky, they are being charged under section 70 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 * I write self-documenting code, you need more comments, their code is unreadable
- nobodyorother 9y ago
  Hey, that sounds like the sort of thing an indoctrinated othersider would say...
harperlee 9y ago
Well I am referring to public schools. Public schools are controlled by the local government, and there are lots of complaints that options for parents that want teaching in Spanish for their children, for example, are close to non-existing. The teaching language is mandatorily Catalan until age 12, and then onwards chosen by the teacher, which is appointed by the local government. If you want education that resembles what is taught in public schools of the rest of the country, you need to pay for it.
- phaemon 9y ago
  That seems reasonable enough. If you're going to live in Catelonia, then it seems right that you should learn Catalan. How exactly is learning a language "indoctrination"? Are children indoctrinated when they're taught through Spanish?
  - alvatar 9y ago
    It's not limited to that. I agree that you should be able to learn in Catalan (but have the option of Spanish too). Visit the Catalan wikipedia, and you'll see how History is changed there with respect other Wikipedias. Read their books to see the bias in the way History is told. Indoctrination is a message with a "them and us" message that polarizes society, and has successfully done so. We all know words can be used in ways that can build a way of thinking of a generation. Well, those words are in the education system.
    - phaemon 9y ago
      Once again, vague accusations with no concrete examples. I'm not convinced. Sounds like you just have a bias against Catalonia.
      - alvatar 9y ago
        I do have a bias against independentism/nationalism because I've lived through it. I cannot give concrete documents about this because there aren't such. Contrary to police violence of which there are. You don't have to be convinced, I'm just trying to express my opinion, not trying to convince anyone of who is better or worse here. But I can confidently assert that there are no "good and bad" in this story, just a war between two different stories with lots of falsehoods in both sides.
gepi79 9y ago
Because "national pride" and "duty to fight for (economic) freedom" can be taught by your parents, schools and local culture as noble, absolute values and goals unrelated to any reason and discussion.

sigotirandolas 9y ago

Do you have any proof about indoctrination of children beyond mere anecdote, hearsay, or accusations from unionist organizations? The indoctrination argument is an argument that just got popular recently for usage by unionists, but was almost unheard before. As far as I know, it hasn’t been validated by court on any occasion.

DiThi 9y ago
Maybe this? http://www.ames-fps.com/adoctrinamiento_libros_sociales_5y6primaria_cataluna.pdf http://www.ames-fps.com/adoctrinamiento_libros_sociales_5y6p... Or maybe the many accusations of events like this one http://baluartedigital.opennemas.com/articulo/separatismo/video-asi-fomentan-hispanofofia-escuelas-catalanas/20161208054918006171.html http://baluartedigital.opennemas.com/articulo/separatismo/vi...
- sigotirandolas 9y ago
  The first link seems to be the most solid proof that unionist parties like Ciudadanos use to ask for investigating the Catalan school system for indoctrination (An investigation I think could be done, as long as there's enough guarantees that it will be impartial and not a witchhunt). It was made by a syndicate that seems to be pretty much nonexistent (see https://www.ara.cat/societat/denuncia-ladoctrinament-llibres-sindicat-delegats_0_1798620299.html https://www.ara.cat/societat/denuncia-ladoctrinament-llibres... ; yes, I know Ara is a biased source), and has been criticized (see http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20170518/422719728704/sindicato-ustec-stes-denuncia-falsedades-en-informe-ames-de-libros-de-texto.html http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20170518/422719728704/s...). Of course, this is just an argument by authority; but if you look at the content, it's pretty clear that many of the supposed instances of bias are just factual reports that the report argues are instances of bias, but the way to eliminate that bias seems to be that it should be reminding the kids about the existence and goodness of Spain at every turn. For example, end of page 17, the textbook says: "On 1700, the spanish king Charles II died without sons. Charles of Austria and Philip of Bourbon were the two candidates at the throne. The two sides fought in Succession War (1702-1714), which Philip won. Then, Philip V promulgated, as the new king, the Nueva Planta decrees (1716), which suppressed the laws and institutions of Catalonia, banned the use of catalan, and imposed the laws of Castille." The report then goes to argue that "this presents the king of Spain as an unjust person that hates Catalonia". End of page 15, start of 16, the textbook says: "Barcelona is the capital of both the autonomous community of Catalonia and of the province with the same name". The report argues that "this presents Barcelona as the capital of Catalonia, as if it were the capital of a state, not as a city in a state with another capital" [when the textbook clearly says "Autonomous community of Catalonia"] And on and on and on... The second link fits into what I consider anecdote - a single case, that cannot be extrapolated to be evidence of a general case. See my other comment in this thread for a more elaborated response.

d4rti 9y ago

> They could have also lost in that case. There has been a huge for-independance campaign spanning 20+ years and including indoctrination of former children that now can vote. By which you mean adults? Is indoctrination one of those irregular verbs? * i convince * you indoctrinate * he is brainwashing

jobu 9y ago

The counter protests and polling indicate that there was/is significant opposition to Catalan independence. Spain could've embraced and supported that opposition, or pushed for more negotiation, but instead they used violence and oppression to try stopping the vote. That kept most of the anti-independence voters away from the polls, and it also turned many moderates toward independence. Now the Catalan government has a huge mandate and even more support to push for independence. The Spanish government fucked up massively, and I wish the EU had more power to step in and moderate the situation.

dnautics 9y ago
The EU does have the power, they don't have the guts, because the governing institutions are set up to be run by spineless bureaucrats that 'know better than the citizenry'. The solution then is to procrastinate on doing anything difficult and hope it goes away like a bad dream, nobody's job is in danger anyways.

icebraining 9y ago

(6) is misleading; the president of PP (the party of the central government) in Catalonia has himself asked for a secret vote recently[1], hoping for defections in the pro-independence groups. Yet a few hours later he calls them cowards for having a secret vote. [1] https://twitter.com/elsmatins/status/923815123260772357 https://twitter.com/elsmatins/status/923815123260772357 (you'll notice it was retweeted by Albiol himself)