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> it seems can either turn into a civil war When only one of the sides have weapons, there can not be a civil war, only a genocide. I am convinced that there i

> it seems can either turn into a civil war When only one of the sides have weapons, there can not be a civil war, only a genocide. I am convinced that there is a limit on the violations of Human Rights that Europe will be able to tolerate from a state member.

jcadam 9y ago
If the alternative is direct military intervention by the other member states, I suspect they're prepared to tolerate quite a bit.
simias 9y ago
"civil war", "genocide". Come on people, don't throw these words willy-nilly, leave that to bad news outlets. Yes, the spanish government was quite brutal in its attempt to stymie the referendum (probably unnecessarily so) but we're not on the verge of a catalan genocide in any way, shape or form. If you keep abusing words they end up losing their meaning.
- narag 9y ago
  Yes, the spanish government was quite brutal in its attempt to stymie the referendum That's wrong. There were a handful of injured, don't believe the propaganda. Most international media that were fooled by that lies have acknowledged this much.
  - 6t6t6t6 9y ago
    I will just leave this here: https://spanishpolice.github.io/ https://spanishpolice.github.io/
    - microcolonel 9y ago
      It's interesting to see how quickly people will downplay and deny the actions of the Guardia Incivil. If the referendum is illegitimate, why suppress it? ;- )
      - pvaldes 9y ago
        Because they were planning to spend millions of euro in an illegal thing. Money directly stolen from people like you and me.
        roywiggins 9y ago
        Sending the cops in seems like throwing good money after bad. The ballots were already printed, etc.
        microcolonel 9y ago
        The Spanish government regularly wastes Catalonian money, including sending in police to suppress this technically illegitimate vote. Whatever this vote cost to administer, it is a pittance in the grand scheme of things, especially considering the people seem to be willing to bear the economic burden of attempting to gain sovereignty. If their crime is misappropriating funds for the referendum, then surely the police should be arresting the politicians, not harassing the public at large.
        AnimalMuppet 9y ago
        Because they were planning to spend millions of euro in an illegal thing, and use the results to try to legitimize the illegal thing in the eyes of the world.
        6t6t6t6 9y ago
        Having 11.000 Spanish policemen in Catalonia, including the ones in the Lonely Tones ship, costs 33M EUR a day.
      - narag 9y ago
        If the referendum is illegitimate, why suppress it? ;- ) If murder is illegitimate, why suppress it? Brilliant.
        microcolonel 9y ago
        If you could save murder victims retroactively by just not recognizing the murder, this analogy might land.
  - simias 9y ago
    Regardless of the scale and strength of the repression I'm still of the opinion that it was unwarranted. Declare the referendum to be illegal, tell lawful spanish citizens to stay home then disregard the results. Maybe prosecute the people organizing the referendum if the law allows it. Even though the referendum was illegal it didn't create any imminent danger. Therefore I think the use of force by Madrid was disproportionate. It also effectively backfired by making the independentists look more sympathetic even though their motive is for the most part rather selfish at the core.
    - narag 9y ago
      It's true that it was a disaster but not because they tried to prevent it, but because they didn't the obvious thing and sent the police one day earlier. The videos that are in that page are not particularly violent, just what you would expect when people resist the police.
  - handelaar 9y ago
    Oh FFS. We know what we saw on TV outside your little PP-controlled broadcast TV bubble. I was watching footage of your police beating the shit out of people all day long. This particular argument -- "fake news, it didn't happen" -- is outside of Spain the most ridiculous Trumpish nonsense imaginable. "Lies"? I saw it with my own eyes in real time. Looking us right in the eye and insisting that black is white is offensive.
    - pvaldes 9y ago
      Are internet, Twitter and Youtube now controlled by PP? I don't think so.
- tomjen3 9y ago
  Is it genocide to shoot at protesters if they are primarily a particular ethnicity? Because that may be what Spain has to do to force Catalonia to comply.
  - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
    I think they'll be shooting less because they're a particular ethnicity and more because they're rioting, protesting the decision, or directly fighting the government. Ethnic differences would be coincidental in such an occurrence.
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago
  "Quite brutal" by the standards of the ordinary course of civil society, yes. "Quite brutal" by the standards of governments facing an insurrection? Not so much.
nemo44x 9y ago
> When only one of the sides have weapons, there can not be a civil war, only a genocide. Certainly an argument in support of the second amendment of the United States.
- ben_w 9y ago
  I suspect the only reason the US government lets Americans think the second amendment would enable the population to forcibly remove an undesirable government, is because the weapons and strategic/tactical/leadership skills of the population are vastly out-classed by the armed forces. What good is a semi-automatic against a supersonic jet that just fired an air-to-ground missile in your direction? Plenty of AK-47s in Afghanistan, they don’t even take on subsonic drones effectively.
  - nemo44x 9y ago
    If the alternative is genocide then I'll take my chances. Asymmetric warfare is a real option and with enough turned generals and armed forces you'd have access to the same high powered weapons and the people could form a militia as well.
    - ben_w 9y ago
      Genocide isn’t the alternative but rather the escalation in the hypothetical where the 2nd Amendment is relevant. The US does have nukes, after all.
      - microcolonel 9y ago
        I don't imagine there would be popular support for the U.S. government nuking Americans in Seattle over a sovereignty dispute.
        ben_w 9y ago
        Neither do I, but the US doesn’t currently have any serious independence movements and last time it did things went very badly indeed.
megous 9y ago
They may not have much arms now, but they have money. There are certainly states that would not mind selling them arms for profit. While secession will be troublesome, there are not many attempts at preventing secession that have not turned ugly violent in recent years because of attempts to prevent it. I lived through a non-violent federation split and certainly hope for this outcome elsewhere. In the case of my country majority of the people didn't want the split either. Despite that it was possible to happen without violence.

jcadam 9y ago

If the alternative is direct military intervention by the other member states, I suspect they're prepared to tolerate quite a bit.

simias 9y ago

"civil war", "genocide". Come on people, don't throw these words willy-nilly, leave that to bad news outlets. Yes, the spanish government was quite brutal in its attempt to stymie the referendum (probably unnecessarily so) but we're not on the verge of a catalan genocide in any way, shape or form. If you keep abusing words they end up losing their meaning.

narag 9y ago
Yes, the spanish government was quite brutal in its attempt to stymie the referendum That's wrong. There were a handful of injured, don't believe the propaganda. Most international media that were fooled by that lies have acknowledged this much.
- 6t6t6t6 9y ago
  I will just leave this here: https://spanishpolice.github.io/ https://spanishpolice.github.io/
  - microcolonel 9y ago
    It's interesting to see how quickly people will downplay and deny the actions of the Guardia Incivil. If the referendum is illegitimate, why suppress it? ;- )
    - pvaldes 9y ago
      Because they were planning to spend millions of euro in an illegal thing. Money directly stolen from people like you and me.
      - roywiggins 9y ago
        Sending the cops in seems like throwing good money after bad. The ballots were already printed, etc.
      - microcolonel 9y ago
        The Spanish government regularly wastes Catalonian money, including sending in police to suppress this technically illegitimate vote. Whatever this vote cost to administer, it is a pittance in the grand scheme of things, especially considering the people seem to be willing to bear the economic burden of attempting to gain sovereignty. If their crime is misappropriating funds for the referendum, then surely the police should be arresting the politicians, not harassing the public at large.
      - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
        Because they were planning to spend millions of euro in an illegal thing, and use the results to try to legitimize the illegal thing in the eyes of the world.
      - 6t6t6t6 9y ago
        Having 11.000 Spanish policemen in Catalonia, including the ones in the Lonely Tones ship, costs 33M EUR a day.
    - narag 9y ago
      If the referendum is illegitimate, why suppress it? ;- ) If murder is illegitimate, why suppress it? Brilliant.
      - microcolonel 9y ago
        If you could save murder victims retroactively by just not recognizing the murder, this analogy might land.
- simias 9y ago
  Regardless of the scale and strength of the repression I'm still of the opinion that it was unwarranted. Declare the referendum to be illegal, tell lawful spanish citizens to stay home then disregard the results. Maybe prosecute the people organizing the referendum if the law allows it. Even though the referendum was illegal it didn't create any imminent danger. Therefore I think the use of force by Madrid was disproportionate. It also effectively backfired by making the independentists look more sympathetic even though their motive is for the most part rather selfish at the core.
  - narag 9y ago
    It's true that it was a disaster but not because they tried to prevent it, but because they didn't the obvious thing and sent the police one day earlier. The videos that are in that page are not particularly violent, just what you would expect when people resist the police.
- handelaar 9y ago
  Oh FFS. We know what we saw on TV outside your little PP-controlled broadcast TV bubble. I was watching footage of your police beating the shit out of people all day long. This particular argument -- "fake news, it didn't happen" -- is outside of Spain the most ridiculous Trumpish nonsense imaginable. "Lies"? I saw it with my own eyes in real time. Looking us right in the eye and insisting that black is white is offensive.
  - pvaldes 9y ago
    Are internet, Twitter and Youtube now controlled by PP? I don't think so.
tomjen3 9y ago
Is it genocide to shoot at protesters if they are primarily a particular ethnicity? Because that may be what Spain has to do to force Catalonia to comply.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  I think they'll be shooting less because they're a particular ethnicity and more because they're rioting, protesting the decision, or directly fighting the government. Ethnic differences would be coincidental in such an occurrence.
AnimalMuppet 9y ago
"Quite brutal" by the standards of the ordinary course of civil society, yes. "Quite brutal" by the standards of governments facing an insurrection? Not so much.

nemo44x 9y ago

> When only one of the sides have weapons, there can not be a civil war, only a genocide. Certainly an argument in support of the second amendment of the United States.

ben_w 9y ago
I suspect the only reason the US government lets Americans think the second amendment would enable the population to forcibly remove an undesirable government, is because the weapons and strategic/tactical/leadership skills of the population are vastly out-classed by the armed forces. What good is a semi-automatic against a supersonic jet that just fired an air-to-ground missile in your direction? Plenty of AK-47s in Afghanistan, they don’t even take on subsonic drones effectively.
- nemo44x 9y ago
  If the alternative is genocide then I'll take my chances. Asymmetric warfare is a real option and with enough turned generals and armed forces you'd have access to the same high powered weapons and the people could form a militia as well.
  - ben_w 9y ago
    Genocide isn’t the alternative but rather the escalation in the hypothetical where the 2nd Amendment is relevant. The US does have nukes, after all.
    - microcolonel 9y ago
      I don't imagine there would be popular support for the U.S. government nuking Americans in Seattle over a sovereignty dispute.
      - ben_w 9y ago
        Neither do I, but the US doesn’t currently have any serious independence movements and last time it did things went very badly indeed.

megous 9y ago

They may not have much arms now, but they have money. There are certainly states that would not mind selling them arms for profit. While secession will be troublesome, there are not many attempts at preventing secession that have not turned ugly violent in recent years because of attempts to prevent it. I lived through a non-violent federation split and certainly hope for this outcome elsewhere. In the case of my country majority of the people didn't want the split either. Despite that it was possible to happen without violence.