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So I am not following this especially closely, but my understanding is that the vote represented a minority of the population and was done outside of legal chan

by ellius 9y ago

So I am not following this especially closely, but my understanding is that the vote represented a minority of the population and was done outside of legal channels. Your last question is really the most pertinent issue as far as what happens next—does the citizenry really care about this, and deeply? Or is it more of a power play drummed up by local political leaders?

ryanlol 9y ago
At least the independistas seem to care about this issue deeply, there’s been much less interest on the other side.
matthewmacleod 9y ago
It was done “outside of legal channels” in the sense that it’s not possible to do it “within legal channels”. I have no particular view on the outcome of this, but the fact that upwards of half a million protestors turned out in Barcelona suggests that it’s an important issue.
- ddalex 9y ago
  > outside of legal channels My understanding is that the polls were not universal, but only ran in the Catalonia areas with strong support for independence. And there was no vote security and verification, in fact, people were encouraged to vote multiple times in the same referendum. So the referendum could not be construed as legal.
alvatar 9y ago
This is a highly emotional issue. Little of what is said regarding History or economics is remotely solid. In an age with particularly low bar for checking facts, I think this independentist movement has basically been sheppered by a few ones interested in manipulating the uninformed population.
jvzr 9y ago
I was in Barcelona the three days before Spain's ultimatum on October 19. And fwiw I saw hundreds of Catalonian flags hanging from the balconies, and very few (less than 5) Spanish flags. It doesn't mean much, but at least in Barcelona it seems that citizens are concerned.
- MatthewWilkes 9y ago
  That's interesting, I was also in Barcelona last week and I saw slightly more Spanish flags than Catalan. I think the real problem is that Spain have consistently blocked a peaceful referendum. I don't believe Catalonia would vote to leave in a fair vote, but I do feel that the repressive actions of the Kingdom of Spain on this matter are the kind of thing that could justify declaring independence unilaterally.
  - alvatar 9y ago
    Again, what is the repression of the Kingdom of Spain exactly? Not allowing the referendum? It was ruled illegal by the high courts. Catalonia should push for a change of that, but not blame the government for applying the Constitution.
    - MatthewWilkes 9y ago
      Yes, not allowing the referendum. It was ruled illegal because the Spanish constitution does not allow secession, effectively preventing self-determination for Catalonia. Denying people a right that's commonly understood to be fundamental to international law and then using violence to enforce it is repression in my book. Spain has consistently escalated tensions rather than offering a path to a real democratic decision. They're going to have to accept the repercussions of that decision.
      - alvatar 9y ago
        You are probably reading biased media. Spain has not consistently escalated tensions, it's been done by both sides. I disagree that something like this is commonly understood as fundamental. Referendums need to meet some conditions and be agreed. Disagreement happened in both sides, it wasn't an authoritarian decision in spite of what some international media seem to enjoy saying. What is illegal in the referendum is: - it asks something that is not allowed to happen by the constitution (thus the need to change it first) - there is no clear definition of who is allowed to vote (who is Catalan by which definition) - the right to vote on the ownership of that land belongs to all Spanish just like any other region belongs to those voting there. - What's the level at which we do the referendum? Not all areas might want to leave in the case of a hypothetical "yes" (which is not a majority at the moment by any poll). What if certain areas want independence from Catalonia? Most importantly: the referendum is illegal even by the autonomic law of Catalonia. They should have had 2/3 of the chamber to push it, and they did it with less than half (48% IRCC).
Boothroid 9y ago
Indeed, there are plenty that say it's only a minority of Catalans that want independence. I have no idea. But I do think the idea of legitimacy is questionable - those against independence point to the constitution, but it's not like those are tablets of stone is it? Constitutions are a work of man, and states come and go, along with their laws. At what point does Madrid's rule become tyrannical? Just interested from a philosophical point of view, though certainly I'm thankful I'm not one of the ones in danger of a Spanish baton to the head.

by ellius 9y ago

ryanlol 9y ago

At least the independistas seem to care about this issue deeply, there’s been much less interest on the other side.

matthewmacleod 9y ago

It was done “outside of legal channels” in the sense that it’s not possible to do it “within legal channels”. I have no particular view on the outcome of this, but the fact that upwards of half a million protestors turned out in Barcelona suggests that it’s an important issue.

ddalex 9y ago
> outside of legal channels My understanding is that the polls were not universal, but only ran in the Catalonia areas with strong support for independence. And there was no vote security and verification, in fact, people were encouraged to vote multiple times in the same referendum. So the referendum could not be construed as legal.

alvatar 9y ago

This is a highly emotional issue. Little of what is said regarding History or economics is remotely solid. In an age with particularly low bar for checking facts, I think this independentist movement has basically been sheppered by a few ones interested in manipulating the uninformed population.

jvzr 9y ago

I was in Barcelona the three days before Spain's ultimatum on October 19. And fwiw I saw hundreds of Catalonian flags hanging from the balconies, and very few (less than 5) Spanish flags. It doesn't mean much, but at least in Barcelona it seems that citizens are concerned.

MatthewWilkes 9y ago
That's interesting, I was also in Barcelona last week and I saw slightly more Spanish flags than Catalan. I think the real problem is that Spain have consistently blocked a peaceful referendum. I don't believe Catalonia would vote to leave in a fair vote, but I do feel that the repressive actions of the Kingdom of Spain on this matter are the kind of thing that could justify declaring independence unilaterally.
- alvatar 9y ago
  Again, what is the repression of the Kingdom of Spain exactly? Not allowing the referendum? It was ruled illegal by the high courts. Catalonia should push for a change of that, but not blame the government for applying the Constitution.
  - MatthewWilkes 9y ago
    Yes, not allowing the referendum. It was ruled illegal because the Spanish constitution does not allow secession, effectively preventing self-determination for Catalonia. Denying people a right that's commonly understood to be fundamental to international law and then using violence to enforce it is repression in my book. Spain has consistently escalated tensions rather than offering a path to a real democratic decision. They're going to have to accept the repercussions of that decision.
    - alvatar 9y ago
      You are probably reading biased media. Spain has not consistently escalated tensions, it's been done by both sides. I disagree that something like this is commonly understood as fundamental. Referendums need to meet some conditions and be agreed. Disagreement happened in both sides, it wasn't an authoritarian decision in spite of what some international media seem to enjoy saying. What is illegal in the referendum is: - it asks something that is not allowed to happen by the constitution (thus the need to change it first) - there is no clear definition of who is allowed to vote (who is Catalan by which definition) - the right to vote on the ownership of that land belongs to all Spanish just like any other region belongs to those voting there. - What's the level at which we do the referendum? Not all areas might want to leave in the case of a hypothetical "yes" (which is not a majority at the moment by any poll). What if certain areas want independence from Catalonia? Most importantly: the referendum is illegal even by the autonomic law of Catalonia. They should have had 2/3 of the chamber to push it, and they did it with less than half (48% IRCC).

Boothroid 9y ago

Indeed, there are plenty that say it's only a minority of Catalans that want independence. I have no idea. But I do think the idea of legitimacy is questionable - those against independence point to the constitution, but it's not like those are tablets of stone is it? Constitutions are a work of man, and states come and go, along with their laws. At what point does Madrid's rule become tyrannical? Just interested from a philosophical point of view, though certainly I'm thankful I'm not one of the ones in danger of a Spanish baton to the head.