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I'm not even sure how to get stuff on or off that list. Again, in what way can you use this site as your bookmarks? You save an obscure documentation page and

by joshu 16y ago

I'm not even sure how to get stuff on or off that list. Again, in what way can you use this site as your bookmarks? You save an obscure documentation page and a mod deletes it, and then what? HN (like digg, reddit, etc) is social news, or something. People who confuse the two think so because the delicious front page and digg looked similar, or whatever.

jacquesm 16y ago
Obscure documentation pages are most likely not going to survive, I agree with you there. But I definitely do use it to 'bookmark' technology news and it is very rare that a link gets deleted. The bigger risk for deletions seems to be not tech related stuff but rather non-tech related stuff that manages to get a couple of upvotes. HN is social news simply because the audience can define it as such. The main ingredients, the ability to post links and to discuss them and to revisit them at a later stage makes it such that some users will come by and use it in that way. All the stuff you submit and upvote goes on that list, you can't remove stuff from the list if you've upvoted it, you can't remove stuff from the list after a certain time has passed.
- joshu 16y ago
  Since when are discussions necessary for social bookmarking? Delicious doesn't have this. Like I said, it's a forum.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    They're not necessary but they don't hurt either. As the coiner of the term, you may want to update the wikipedia article which, after listing the basic requirements says: "As these services have matured and grown more popular, they have added extra features such as ratings and comments on bookmarks". So there seems to be a convergence of terms and services here. I think the major difference between social bookmarking sites (of which I see HN as one, and you obviously don't) versus a forum is that on a forum the vast majority of the topics is not started with a link. On HN the vast majority of the topics is started with a link.
    - joshu 16y ago
      I said that comments aren't necessary, not that having comments make it not social bookmarking. Wikipedia doesn't disagree with me. Lots of systems have ways to mark things for later. Gmail lets you star stuff. Also not bookmarking. Please explain how a firefox extension that replaces the internal bookmarks with HN might work. Because it'd be weird, don't you think? This all goes back to the confusion due to idiots who think Digg is social bookmarking as well.
    - joshu 16y ago
      Can you please provide a definition for social bookmarking that includes the uses you are but is also not overlapping with other things? (Otherwise, you wouldn't need the term as distinct from other definitions, obviously.) The confusion stems from when Kevin Rose started calling Digg social bookmarking to help raise VC, and was adopted by people who are only understanding superficially (the front pages look kinda similar, so clearly they're the same thing!) Kevin then stopped using the term. I think you either understand this superficially as well. There are many things that I could use to serve some obscure purpose without that being the primary purpose. Or perhaps you are just trolling.
      - jacquesm 16y ago
        I think the term 'social bookmarking' has expanded from its initial, narrow definition of 'a service where you can bookmark stuff and share those bookmarks with others and potentially tag them' to the point where the general public will interpret it as to be wide enough to include sites like /., digg, reddit and HN, whereas before that time it was limited to sites like furl, diigoo and deliciou.us. Witness the title of this article. For me the key element is that the majority of the discussions use a link as the topic starter. I understand that initially the definition was a more narrow one, but since this seems to be the way people use it nowadays I'll just go with the flow, I have no vested interest in seeing the definition being used in one way or another. To me a 'forum' is a site where people will come to discuss a subject, occasionally using links to illustrate the point. I think that it is not very friendly to try to label someone that is having a fairly long conversation with you a troll just because you apparently disagree with them.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      I understand your frustration because you want it to mean one thing and the 'idiots' that use the term to describe digg are spoiling that but with terms that are new and in flux you don't get to nail down the definition for ever. If a large enough number of people use a word in a certain way that becomes its meaning. So whether you agree with it or not, by de-facto use sites like 'digg' are now social bookmarking sites, like it or not. Words tend to drift like that and the newer a word is the bigger the chance that it will exhibit some of that drift. I agree that a firefox extension that replaces the internal bookmarking system of firefox with HN would be 'weird', but not as weird as you might think at first glance. You'd have to live with the fact that your bookmark for a cake recipe would stand a good chance of being axed and some more details like that but as it is, with 'showdead' on I can retrieve all the stuff I ever posted, even the deleted articles. Add tagging to articles and you'd pretty much be there. So it's closer than you might think!

by joshu 16y ago

jacquesm 16y ago

Obscure documentation pages are most likely not going to survive, I agree with you there. But I definitely do use it to 'bookmark' technology news and it is very rare that a link gets deleted. The bigger risk for deletions seems to be not tech related stuff but rather non-tech related stuff that manages to get a couple of upvotes. HN is social news simply because the audience can define it as such. The main ingredients, the ability to post links and to discuss them and to revisit them at a later stage makes it such that some users will come by and use it in that way. All the stuff you submit and upvote goes on that list, you can't remove stuff from the list if you've upvoted it, you can't remove stuff from the list after a certain time has passed.

joshu 16y ago
Since when are discussions necessary for social bookmarking? Delicious doesn't have this. Like I said, it's a forum.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  They're not necessary but they don't hurt either. As the coiner of the term, you may want to update the wikipedia article which, after listing the basic requirements says: "As these services have matured and grown more popular, they have added extra features such as ratings and comments on bookmarks". So there seems to be a convergence of terms and services here. I think the major difference between social bookmarking sites (of which I see HN as one, and you obviously don't) versus a forum is that on a forum the vast majority of the topics is not started with a link. On HN the vast majority of the topics is started with a link.
  - joshu 16y ago
    I said that comments aren't necessary, not that having comments make it not social bookmarking. Wikipedia doesn't disagree with me. Lots of systems have ways to mark things for later. Gmail lets you star stuff. Also not bookmarking. Please explain how a firefox extension that replaces the internal bookmarks with HN might work. Because it'd be weird, don't you think? This all goes back to the confusion due to idiots who think Digg is social bookmarking as well.
  - joshu 16y ago
    Can you please provide a definition for social bookmarking that includes the uses you are but is also not overlapping with other things? (Otherwise, you wouldn't need the term as distinct from other definitions, obviously.) The confusion stems from when Kevin Rose started calling Digg social bookmarking to help raise VC, and was adopted by people who are only understanding superficially (the front pages look kinda similar, so clearly they're the same thing!) Kevin then stopped using the term. I think you either understand this superficially as well. There are many things that I could use to serve some obscure purpose without that being the primary purpose. Or perhaps you are just trolling.
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      I think the term 'social bookmarking' has expanded from its initial, narrow definition of 'a service where you can bookmark stuff and share those bookmarks with others and potentially tag them' to the point where the general public will interpret it as to be wide enough to include sites like /., digg, reddit and HN, whereas before that time it was limited to sites like furl, diigoo and deliciou.us. Witness the title of this article. For me the key element is that the majority of the discussions use a link as the topic starter. I understand that initially the definition was a more narrow one, but since this seems to be the way people use it nowadays I'll just go with the flow, I have no vested interest in seeing the definition being used in one way or another. To me a 'forum' is a site where people will come to discuss a subject, occasionally using links to illustrate the point. I think that it is not very friendly to try to label someone that is having a fairly long conversation with you a troll just because you apparently disagree with them.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    I understand your frustration because you want it to mean one thing and the 'idiots' that use the term to describe digg are spoiling that but with terms that are new and in flux you don't get to nail down the definition for ever. If a large enough number of people use a word in a certain way that becomes its meaning. So whether you agree with it or not, by de-facto use sites like 'digg' are now social bookmarking sites, like it or not. Words tend to drift like that and the newer a word is the bigger the chance that it will exhibit some of that drift. I agree that a firefox extension that replaces the internal bookmarking system of firefox with HN would be 'weird', but not as weird as you might think at first glance. You'd have to live with the fact that your bookmark for a cake recipe would stand a good chance of being axed and some more details like that but as it is, with 'showdead' on I can retrieve all the stuff I ever posted, even the deleted articles. Add tagging to articles and you'd pretty much be there. So it's closer than you might think!