4 ms·

What gives someone born in New Zealand any more rights than anyone else? This myopic nationalist mindset is ridiculous. We were all born on the same planet.

peonicles 9y ago
Because they actually live there ? As opposed to transient visitors ? It's like going to your friend's house and rearranging the furniture there because "we were all born on planet Earth".
- rorykoehler 9y ago
  What constitutes a transient visitor compared to someone who lives there? I don't know what I will be doing and where I will be in a year. Never have. Does that mean I shouldn't be allowed buy property anywhere?
  - crispinb 9y ago
    NZ citizens aren't under any obligation to put your interests before those of their fellow citizens. It would be generous for them to consider you, and generosity is good, all things being equal (and NZ has an admirable record as a generous polity). But the side-effect in this case it to allow poor New Zealanders to be predated on by the global rich. They have clearly decided to attempt to prevent this predation.
    - coredog64 9y ago
      Americans are told they have to accept unlimited immigration and everything good and bad that comes with it. Not sure why NZ should be any different.
      - timhaines 9y ago
        Lol, that's BS. It's very difficult, and impossible for many people to immigrate to the US.
    - rorykoehler 9y ago
      Please see my comment in grandparent thread relating to high quality subsidised public housing for a better approach to the issue.
      - crispinb 9y ago
        The best balance of policies to deal with fair & equitable housing supply has been the subject of vast tonnages of reports and research over many decades. It's hardly going to be resolved in a comments page. That's a different topic from what I was commenting on, ie. NZ's putative duty to write its laws for your lifestyle convenience.
        rorykoehler 9y ago
        Clearly hardly any governments have read or paid attention to the "vast tonnages of reports and research over many decades" relating to fair & equitable housing supply or they wouldn't be resorting to the level of populist BS that is prevalent in the world today.
      - ponyfleisch 9y ago
        You have not provided any further details on why this is better. And you mention living a transient lifestyle. Please tell me more about the property you own in Singapore then, because i'm sure you're happy paying a double digit percentage stamp duty in a not entirely stable market for 1-2 years of living here. /s
crispinb 9y ago
> someone born in New Zealand NZ is a country of immigration, and gives full rights to all citizens. This has nothing to do with where anyone is born. > What gives .. any more rights than anyone else Property rights are laws. They can be made, altered, and revoked. What gives NZ citizens the right to buy existing houses will be NZ laws, promulgated by a democratically elected parliament. > This myopic nationalist mindset is ridiculous There's a perfectly reasonable non-nationalist approach to this kind of law change, based on trying to keep housing available for people who can't bid against the global rich. I'm sure plenty of NZ progressives would love to protect the world's poor from the depredations of the 1%. But given the NZ parliament's limited jurisdiction (viz., to NZ), this seems like a reasonable start.
ponyfleisch 9y ago
think of it as an organizational structure. administrative divisions on multiple levels make sense. this way i can politically participate in shaping society around my physical location. this has nothing to do with rejecting foreigner's ways of live, it's about having a voice in how your own surroundings work and then see how these compare to other places based on other choices on a wider stage.
- rorykoehler 9y ago
  I agree on the philosophy around organisational structures. In relation to housing this is also a solved problem (hint: it's not solved in the way NZ are doing). In Singapore where I am currently based they have high quality subsidised public housing that is only available to citizens and permanent residents. Blanket banning foreigners from purchasing does 2 undesirable things. It stops people being able to lay foundations to eventually migrate and it deflects attention from the real solution (perhaps a third is that it encourage cross-border trade but I'm not sure of the reality around that). The real solution is to build denser urban areas with a suitable supply of high quality subsidised public housing. This allows the poorer inhabitants to firstly live in areas that are economically feasible and, secondly, it is well documented that higher density cities have increased economic output of a non-linear nature compared to low density cities. An added benefit is that by fitting more people into less space we reduce our environmental footprint. It should have been part of the Paris climate accord to force cities to zone for building up not out.
  - eecc 9y ago
    Ehm, no immigrating individual ever buys property before having actually immigrated. Unless you’re obscenely wealthy, normals usually immigrate and get ripped off renting a couple years. In the meantime they stabilize, build enough credit data to get a mortgage, explore and learn where they want to setup permanently and then - finally - buy.
    - rorykoehler 9y ago
      Sure they do. If you plan to move somewhere in 3 years and the property market is too expensive where you currently live it's cheaper and makes more sense to rent now and buy where you plan to move (especially since you can't afford local prices in any case).
Lachy01 9y ago
I normally similarly dislike the myopic nationalist tendencies but disagree with you here. When countries/people say "bring back jobs from China" I hate it. Chinese are humans and they aren't taking the jobs to screw you.. They are doing it to put food on the table.. How can you begrudge someone that? Particularly when the standard of living it so much lower on average there than the countries the complainers come from e.g. US, Australia. However, this is a rule preventing NON-RESIDENTS from purchasing. So long as you actually live in NZ a Chinese national could still buy property. I can understand why you'd prioritize residents being allowed to purchase over non-residents but of course this doesn't address wealthy residents buying their 20th investment property so it is at least a little distasteful in my opinion.
indemnity 9y ago
Because it’s our country? You know how countries work, right?

peonicles 9y ago

Because they actually live there ? As opposed to transient visitors ? It's like going to your friend's house and rearranging the furniture there because "we were all born on planet Earth".

rorykoehler 9y ago
What constitutes a transient visitor compared to someone who lives there? I don't know what I will be doing and where I will be in a year. Never have. Does that mean I shouldn't be allowed buy property anywhere?
- crispinb 9y ago
  NZ citizens aren't under any obligation to put your interests before those of their fellow citizens. It would be generous for them to consider you, and generosity is good, all things being equal (and NZ has an admirable record as a generous polity). But the side-effect in this case it to allow poor New Zealanders to be predated on by the global rich. They have clearly decided to attempt to prevent this predation.
  - coredog64 9y ago
    Americans are told they have to accept unlimited immigration and everything good and bad that comes with it. Not sure why NZ should be any different.
    - timhaines 9y ago
      Lol, that's BS. It's very difficult, and impossible for many people to immigrate to the US.
  - rorykoehler 9y ago
    Please see my comment in grandparent thread relating to high quality subsidised public housing for a better approach to the issue.
    - crispinb 9y ago
      The best balance of policies to deal with fair & equitable housing supply has been the subject of vast tonnages of reports and research over many decades. It's hardly going to be resolved in a comments page. That's a different topic from what I was commenting on, ie. NZ's putative duty to write its laws for your lifestyle convenience.
      - rorykoehler 9y ago
        Clearly hardly any governments have read or paid attention to the "vast tonnages of reports and research over many decades" relating to fair & equitable housing supply or they wouldn't be resorting to the level of populist BS that is prevalent in the world today.
    - ponyfleisch 9y ago
      You have not provided any further details on why this is better. And you mention living a transient lifestyle. Please tell me more about the property you own in Singapore then, because i'm sure you're happy paying a double digit percentage stamp duty in a not entirely stable market for 1-2 years of living here. /s

crispinb 9y ago

> someone born in New Zealand NZ is a country of immigration, and gives full rights to all citizens. This has nothing to do with where anyone is born. > What gives .. any more rights than anyone else Property rights are laws. They can be made, altered, and revoked. What gives NZ citizens the right to buy existing houses will be NZ laws, promulgated by a democratically elected parliament. > This myopic nationalist mindset is ridiculous There's a perfectly reasonable non-nationalist approach to this kind of law change, based on trying to keep housing available for people who can't bid against the global rich. I'm sure plenty of NZ progressives would love to protect the world's poor from the depredations of the 1%. But given the NZ parliament's limited jurisdiction (viz., to NZ), this seems like a reasonable start.

ponyfleisch 9y ago

think of it as an organizational structure. administrative divisions on multiple levels make sense. this way i can politically participate in shaping society around my physical location. this has nothing to do with rejecting foreigner's ways of live, it's about having a voice in how your own surroundings work and then see how these compare to other places based on other choices on a wider stage.

rorykoehler 9y ago
I agree on the philosophy around organisational structures. In relation to housing this is also a solved problem (hint: it's not solved in the way NZ are doing). In Singapore where I am currently based they have high quality subsidised public housing that is only available to citizens and permanent residents. Blanket banning foreigners from purchasing does 2 undesirable things. It stops people being able to lay foundations to eventually migrate and it deflects attention from the real solution (perhaps a third is that it encourage cross-border trade but I'm not sure of the reality around that). The real solution is to build denser urban areas with a suitable supply of high quality subsidised public housing. This allows the poorer inhabitants to firstly live in areas that are economically feasible and, secondly, it is well documented that higher density cities have increased economic output of a non-linear nature compared to low density cities. An added benefit is that by fitting more people into less space we reduce our environmental footprint. It should have been part of the Paris climate accord to force cities to zone for building up not out.
- eecc 9y ago
  Ehm, no immigrating individual ever buys property before having actually immigrated. Unless you’re obscenely wealthy, normals usually immigrate and get ripped off renting a couple years. In the meantime they stabilize, build enough credit data to get a mortgage, explore and learn where they want to setup permanently and then - finally - buy.
  - rorykoehler 9y ago
    Sure they do. If you plan to move somewhere in 3 years and the property market is too expensive where you currently live it's cheaper and makes more sense to rent now and buy where you plan to move (especially since you can't afford local prices in any case).

Lachy01 9y ago

I normally similarly dislike the myopic nationalist tendencies but disagree with you here. When countries/people say "bring back jobs from China" I hate it. Chinese are humans and they aren't taking the jobs to screw you.. They are doing it to put food on the table.. How can you begrudge someone that? Particularly when the standard of living it so much lower on average there than the countries the complainers come from e.g. US, Australia. However, this is a rule preventing NON-RESIDENTS from purchasing. So long as you actually live in NZ a Chinese national could still buy property. I can understand why you'd prioritize residents being allowed to purchase over non-residents but of course this doesn't address wealthy residents buying their 20th investment property so it is at least a little distasteful in my opinion.

indemnity 9y ago

Because it’s our country? You know how countries work, right?