4 ms·

Life without language

31 points by AngryParsley 16y ago

chroma 16y ago
That was a very good article, both interesting and emotionally satisfying. I didn't know it was possible for people to acquire language as late as their 20's.
- metellus 16y ago
  In my (admittedly low level) psychology class, I was taught that it's impossible to acquire language after a certain age. The case study of Genie ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie_(feral_child) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie_(feral_child) ) was used and the conclusion was that if a person does not learn some form of language during a critical period early in life, they never will.
  - drunkpotato 16y ago
    I wouldn't be too hasty about using Genie's case study to generalize about language acquisition. Genie was also horribly abused and neglected, without adequate access to sunlight or nutrition, for the formative years of her life. In other words, lack of access to language was not the only variable in her case. Of course, a controlled study of this would be unethical, so case studies are all we have, and we can't be picky about them. But neither should we make assumptions about what variables are actually being measured in a case study. That requires a controlled experiment.
    - loewenskind 16y ago
      >Of course, a controlled study of this would be unethical, We can't do as the Pharaoh did for testing purposes, of course, but if the estimates are right about how many people make it at least to late adolescence without language I think there are probably enough cases out there to learn a great deal.
  - loewenskind 16y ago
    There is more than just this case to suggest this. There were other Feral children who developed to a similar level to Genie (though, as pointed out by another commenter, it's impossible to say how much of their lack of development is a result of the abuse itself and has nothing to do with language). There is the Pirahã who don't have numbers as part of their language and are apparently unable to learn them passed a certain age (note: AFAIK both these points are contested). Another part of the idea comes from the observation that our brains stop forming new connections at some point. But I think all of this is touched on in the article. I was in the "language first" camp until I read this. Fantastic stuff.
pontifier 16y ago
I had an experience that I believe is related to something mentioned by Ildefonso about why it is so hard to explain the inability to think correctly about a problem and also related to the nature of idea formation. I had a conceptual problem that was bothering me. It nagged at me for days. I worked my way around the issue in every sort of way I could, but couldn't make any headway. Then as I was pacing frantically I discovered the answer. The answer was right. The answer was pure. The answer was perfect. It was so perfect and pure it became a part of my being. As I stood there I realised that the problem was slipping away from me. I clutched the wisps of the arguments that had failed in a vain attempt to remember what the problem had been so that I might help others that I knew were also struggling... but the problem had been totally and utterly destroyed. I remember the experience, but not the problem or even the solution. Sometimes you loose something by learning something.
danbmil99 16y ago
Nice until she goes off on implants. Fuck that. Google some videos of kids with their implants. This fetish for signing society is just absurd. We've figured out how to cure deafness in most cases; get used to it.
- cturner 16y ago
  That may be hiding a really interesting point: kids can learn to sign quicker and earlier than they can learn to speak. I expect it to be a good thing to try and get kids engaged with language skills as soon as possible, and using flexible language skills as much as practical. Some people achieve this by getting a nanny that speaks another language. How hard is it to learn sign language to fluency compared to spoken languages?
  - patio11 16y ago
    There is an entire movement to teach babies sign language. One of my friends did it for her kids. The idea is not, however, using sign language to fluency (though, let's be honest, you're not trying to teach your child any language to fluency in their first few years of life).
- AngryParsley 16y ago
  The author of this article is a Greg Downey, not Susan Schaller. I'm not sure what Schaller's position on implants is. I agree that deaf children should get cochlear implants, but the article did point out some disadvantages that I didn't know about. Your tone seems rather angry. I don't see the point of getting angry about someone else's belief. It just makes you angry and them unconvinced.
- chroma 16y ago
  I find your comment both uncivil and insubstantial (to use terms from the HN rules). You found one tangential thing in the article and disagreed with it. You didn't explain why you disagreed with it, you simply crudely expressed your opinion. Cochlear implants were discussed to death recently (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1505365 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1505365). It's a loud, polarizing topic and further discussion is unproductive. Yet your comment is voted higher than any other in this thread. (sigh)
RiderOfGiraffes 16y ago
Related article with much discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1505365 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1505365
loewenskind 16y ago
Fantastic article. I've always believed the "language first" crowd, but it looks like (as always) it is more complex than that. Though I wonder why Ildefonso wont talk about his experiences before he knew language? Could it be that he has no way (no frame of reference with which) to articulate it?
yannis 16y ago
A photo can say 1000 words - even in silence http://coutequecoute.blogspot.com/2009/04/harold-whittles-hears-for-very-first.html http://coutequecoute.blogspot.com/2009/04/harold-whittles-he... I remembered this picture from a Life Magazine year book. Did a bit of a search and found it. Priceless! The boy's face says it all.

31 points by AngryParsley 16y ago

That was a very good article, both interesting and emotionally satisfying. I didn't know it was possible for people to acquire language as late as their 20's.

metellus 16y ago
In my (admittedly low level) psychology class, I was taught that it's impossible to acquire language after a certain age. The case study of Genie ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie_(feral_child) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie_(feral_child) ) was used and the conclusion was that if a person does not learn some form of language during a critical period early in life, they never will.
- drunkpotato 16y ago
  I wouldn't be too hasty about using Genie's case study to generalize about language acquisition. Genie was also horribly abused and neglected, without adequate access to sunlight or nutrition, for the formative years of her life. In other words, lack of access to language was not the only variable in her case. Of course, a controlled study of this would be unethical, so case studies are all we have, and we can't be picky about them. But neither should we make assumptions about what variables are actually being measured in a case study. That requires a controlled experiment.
  - loewenskind 16y ago
    >Of course, a controlled study of this would be unethical, We can't do as the Pharaoh did for testing purposes, of course, but if the estimates are right about how many people make it at least to late adolescence without language I think there are probably enough cases out there to learn a great deal.
- loewenskind 16y ago
  There is more than just this case to suggest this. There were other Feral children who developed to a similar level to Genie (though, as pointed out by another commenter, it's impossible to say how much of their lack of development is a result of the abuse itself and has nothing to do with language). There is the Pirahã who don't have numbers as part of their language and are apparently unable to learn them passed a certain age (note: AFAIK both these points are contested). Another part of the idea comes from the observation that our brains stop forming new connections at some point. But I think all of this is touched on in the article. I was in the "language first" camp until I read this. Fantastic stuff.

pontifier 16y ago

I had an experience that I believe is related to something mentioned by Ildefonso about why it is so hard to explain the inability to think correctly about a problem and also related to the nature of idea formation. I had a conceptual problem that was bothering me. It nagged at me for days. I worked my way around the issue in every sort of way I could, but couldn't make any headway. Then as I was pacing frantically I discovered the answer. The answer was right. The answer was pure. The answer was perfect. It was so perfect and pure it became a part of my being. As I stood there I realised that the problem was slipping away from me. I clutched the wisps of the arguments that had failed in a vain attempt to remember what the problem had been so that I might help others that I knew were also struggling... but the problem had been totally and utterly destroyed. I remember the experience, but not the problem or even the solution. Sometimes you loose something by learning something.

danbmil99 16y ago

Nice until she goes off on implants. Fuck that. Google some videos of kids with their implants. This fetish for signing society is just absurd. We've figured out how to cure deafness in most cases; get used to it.

cturner 16y ago
That may be hiding a really interesting point: kids can learn to sign quicker and earlier than they can learn to speak. I expect it to be a good thing to try and get kids engaged with language skills as soon as possible, and using flexible language skills as much as practical. Some people achieve this by getting a nanny that speaks another language. How hard is it to learn sign language to fluency compared to spoken languages?
- patio11 16y ago
  There is an entire movement to teach babies sign language. One of my friends did it for her kids. The idea is not, however, using sign language to fluency (though, let's be honest, you're not trying to teach your child any language to fluency in their first few years of life).
AngryParsley 16y ago
The author of this article is a Greg Downey, not Susan Schaller. I'm not sure what Schaller's position on implants is. I agree that deaf children should get cochlear implants, but the article did point out some disadvantages that I didn't know about. Your tone seems rather angry. I don't see the point of getting angry about someone else's belief. It just makes you angry and them unconvinced.
chroma 16y ago
I find your comment both uncivil and insubstantial (to use terms from the HN rules). You found one tangential thing in the article and disagreed with it. You didn't explain why you disagreed with it, you simply crudely expressed your opinion. Cochlear implants were discussed to death recently (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1505365 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1505365). It's a loud, polarizing topic and further discussion is unproductive. Yet your comment is voted higher than any other in this thread. (sigh)

RiderOfGiraffes 16y ago

Related article with much discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1505365 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1505365

loewenskind 16y ago

Fantastic article. I've always believed the "language first" crowd, but it looks like (as always) it is more complex than that. Though I wonder why Ildefonso wont talk about his experiences before he knew language? Could it be that he has no way (no frame of reference with which) to articulate it?

yannis 16y ago

A photo can say 1000 words - even in silence http://coutequecoute.blogspot.com/2009/04/harold-whittles-hears-for-very-first.html http://coutequecoute.blogspot.com/2009/04/harold-whittles-he... I remembered this picture from a Life Magazine year book. Did a bit of a search and found it. Priceless! The boy's face says it all.