5 ms·

The HARC First Year Report

79 points by fniephaus 9y ago

indescions_2017 9y ago
If there is one common theme. Its "visual programming" ;)
- RubenSandwich 9y ago
  While I know so many programmers are vehemently opposed to "visual programming" I wonder if we can make programming multimodal. Such as a programming language that supports both visual and text modes, where both are first class citizens to the language. This would allow us to use visual tools to see macrostructure; a place where text falls short. But still let us have our tools for the micro-editing that is modern programming. I know some work has been done in this area: http://ravichugh.github.io/sketch-n-sketch/ http://ravichugh.github.io/sketch-n-sketch/.
  - nikofeyn 9y ago
    i am firmly of the belief that this is possible and the right direction to go. i primarily use labview, which is arguably the best general purpose visual programming language. there is a lot of power in the visual approach, and i think it could be improved and extended. as you say, many people are allergic to visual programming but often due to tunnel vision and short sighted reasons. but the visual paradigm is a step in the right direction in terms of seeing and interacting with your program rather than just writing it.
  - akavel 9y ago
    See also an attempt at: http://www.luna-lang.org/ http://www.luna-lang.org/ I'm crossing my fingers hoping they'll finally get something out in the public.
  - Glench 9y ago
    > While I know so many programmers are vehemently opposed to "visual programming" I wonder if we can make programming multimodal. "Visual programming" so far as been about visualizing program's static structure. Scratch and Labview do this, and this has some advantages, especially for beginners. But there's never been much advantage in understanding program behavior from seeing its structure, and I think tools for understanding program behavior are probably the most effective way of making all programming better. See my project Flowsheets for some experiments in this space: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1Ca5czOY7Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1Ca5czOY7Q
brimtown 9y ago
The Dynamicland Twitter account has a bunch of fascinating demos of their work so far: https://twitter.com/Dynamicland1 https://twitter.com/Dynamicland1
azhenley 9y ago
Why did Vi Hart (the first PI listed) leave HARC? She posted a youtube video just this week asking for funding through patreon.
- sp332 9y ago
  It was the Elevr team (four people) who lost funding. http://elevr.com/elevr-leaving-ycr/ http://elevr.com/elevr-leaving-ycr/ Vi said they could continue for $15,000 per month but couldn't find any backers.
  - auggierose 9y ago
    Interesting. Is there anything more to the story? Why were they accepted into HARC, and then let go after such a short period? Has this happened to other people funded by HARC as well?
baybal2 9y ago
Where is the cat videos website guy who was researching "new types of cities?"
- smikhanov 9y ago
  He runs the show, so he doesn't need to submit any reports
zellyn 9y ago
Wow. Bret Victor's stuff is so incredibly human, and so incredibly useful. I want it!
GuiA 9y ago
It is my understanding that HARC has stopped funding Victor’s [1] and Hart’s [2] research. Is that accurate? Have other groups in the list suffered from the same fate? If so, how does that fit within HARC’s long term research strategy? These sort of initiatives rarely bear fruits in a single year. [1] http://elevr.com/elevr-leaving-ycr/ http://elevr.com/elevr-leaving-ycr/ [2] I was at Dynamic Land earlier this week, and they said they were closing down for the winter, actively looking for funding, and not reopening if they cannot provide said funding.
- skadamat 9y ago
  They may just be "hosting" them. Providing support, space, etc. It's a bit unclear actually. Actually, it looks like you're right that they're looking for funding. It seems like Microsoft is matching employee contributions to Dynamicland: https://twitter.com/DynamicWebPaige/status/918977770130206721 https://twitter.com/DynamicWebPaige/status/91897777013020672...
- RubenSandwich 9y ago
  I'm struggling to see how why Dynamic Land would be no longer be funded by HARC. Doesn't it fit the HARC goal of: "HARC’s mission is to ensure human wisdom exceeds human power, by inventing and freely sharing ideas and technology that allow all humans to see further and understand more deeply."[1] pretty well? Maybe HARC is just a year-long thing? If so Bret/Dynamic Land team can you please put up a Patreon account and let us fund you. I will gladly give money to you as it is the most human form of computing I have ever seen and would like progress on it to continue. [1] https://blog.ycombinator.com/harc/ https://blog.ycombinator.com/harc/
- raphman 9y ago
  Yoshiki Ohshima has left HARC, too, last month [1]. Has HARC been discontinued completely? [1] https://twitter.com/yoshikiohshima/status/904134118115393536 https://twitter.com/yoshikiohshima/status/904134118115393536
- seltzered_ 9y ago
  Jonathan Edwards (@johnathoda) also left HARC back in June: https://mobile.twitter.com/jonathoda/status/871784998113882118 https://mobile.twitter.com/jonathoda/status/8717849981138821...
westoncb 9y ago
Realtalk/Dynamicland is fascinating to me, though there's something about it which I haven't been able to get over, which is: how can it provide the kind of generality we're used to in computing without giving some set of re-combinable primitives? In other words, something like pixels where the primitive thing is simple and easy to configure algorithmically, and yet the range of configurations is vast enough to represent a large fraction of human imagination. I love 'being in the world' as opposed to sitting statically at a desk—but I would need something that could give me the similar feeling of vast possibilities when I consider what I'd like to build next. I wonder if some kind of re-combinable primitives for representation are part of the plan, or if it's an explicit aim of the project to avoid them—a kind of stance against abstraction, reduction, and uniformity. That's part of why it's so fascinating to me: I can't see a general enough system being built without that—but if it were to succeed, I'm fairly confident it would be one of the most interesting systems I'd ever encountered :) Edit: I should add: this is from what little I actually know about it. I've just seen a few few videos, read the blurb from the article, and read another article on the laser socks project which talked some about Realtalk.
- skadamat 9y ago
  Highly recommend Bret's 2 talks for context: [1] Seeing Spaces: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klTjiXjqHrQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klTjiXjqHrQ [2] Humane Representation of Thought: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agOdP2Bmieg&t=1913s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agOdP2Bmieg&t=1913s
  - westoncb 9y ago
    I saw them both a while back, and reviewed the poster for Seeing Spaces just now. However, I haven't been unable to find anything that addresses the issue I brought up. I agree very much with most of the general principles Victor talks about (you can see my own extensive work on making program behavior visible here[0] for example)—but when it comes to the space concept, I have difficulty finding something concrete about how the space would be used beneficially. I get the flavor of this idea that your workspace should be 'extension of your body', but at this point, years after becoming familiar with it, I'd like to get more concrete on the subject. Dynamicland/Realtalk certainly are more concrete—but my thoughts on it are reflected in my first comment. [0] http://symbolflux.com/projects/avd http://symbolflux.com/projects/avd
bufo 9y ago
Looks like Bret Victor's paragraph was removed from the page? It still talks about "6 principal investigators" but lists 5.
- skadamat 9y ago
  Oh weird, maybe it's temporary? That's odd, it was just there a few hours ago.
  - kennethfriedman 9y ago
    Doesn't seem like an accident to me. Here's the archive of the page before the edits: https://web.archive.org/web/20171026233121/https://harc.ycr.org/reports/ https://web.archive.org/web/20171026233121/https://harc.ycr....
    - gregsadetsky 9y ago
      Thanks for the link. In that paragraph (the one that was removed), there are two links to Bret’s website and both of those are now 404 as well... what’s going on? http://worrydream.com/HypercardInTheWorld/videos.html http://worrydream.com/HypercardInTheWorld/videos.html http://worrydream.com/oatmeal/realtalk-tech-teaser-2017-02-25.mov http://worrydream.com/oatmeal/realtalk-tech-teaser-2017-02-2...
      - Glench 9y ago
        I assume Bret just didn't want the work to be shown without context yet.
anoother 9y ago
Where is Bret Victor? > Here are year-end reports from HARC’s six Principal Investigators. Only 5 are listed...
- endergen 9y ago
  That's weird. He was there before.
OisinMoran 9y ago
Just a note that there is an unclosed quotation mark in the "physics" link in Vi Hart's section, causing it to not show and it also breaks the "hyperbolic space" link. Incredible work from an incredible team! Not sure why Bret Victor's section disappeared.
- robertkrahn01 9y ago
  Thanks!

79 points by fniephaus 9y ago

indescions_2017 9y ago

If there is one common theme. Its "visual programming" ;)

RubenSandwich 9y ago
While I know so many programmers are vehemently opposed to "visual programming" I wonder if we can make programming multimodal. Such as a programming language that supports both visual and text modes, where both are first class citizens to the language. This would allow us to use visual tools to see macrostructure; a place where text falls short. But still let us have our tools for the micro-editing that is modern programming. I know some work has been done in this area: http://ravichugh.github.io/sketch-n-sketch/ http://ravichugh.github.io/sketch-n-sketch/.
- nikofeyn 9y ago
  i am firmly of the belief that this is possible and the right direction to go. i primarily use labview, which is arguably the best general purpose visual programming language. there is a lot of power in the visual approach, and i think it could be improved and extended. as you say, many people are allergic to visual programming but often due to tunnel vision and short sighted reasons. but the visual paradigm is a step in the right direction in terms of seeing and interacting with your program rather than just writing it.
- akavel 9y ago
  See also an attempt at: http://www.luna-lang.org/ http://www.luna-lang.org/ I'm crossing my fingers hoping they'll finally get something out in the public.
- Glench 9y ago
  > While I know so many programmers are vehemently opposed to "visual programming" I wonder if we can make programming multimodal. "Visual programming" so far as been about visualizing program's static structure. Scratch and Labview do this, and this has some advantages, especially for beginners. But there's never been much advantage in understanding program behavior from seeing its structure, and I think tools for understanding program behavior are probably the most effective way of making all programming better. See my project Flowsheets for some experiments in this space: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1Ca5czOY7Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1Ca5czOY7Q

brimtown 9y ago

The Dynamicland Twitter account has a bunch of fascinating demos of their work so far: https://twitter.com/Dynamicland1 https://twitter.com/Dynamicland1

azhenley 9y ago

Why did Vi Hart (the first PI listed) leave HARC? She posted a youtube video just this week asking for funding through patreon.

sp332 9y ago
It was the Elevr team (four people) who lost funding. http://elevr.com/elevr-leaving-ycr/ http://elevr.com/elevr-leaving-ycr/ Vi said they could continue for $15,000 per month but couldn't find any backers.
- auggierose 9y ago
  Interesting. Is there anything more to the story? Why were they accepted into HARC, and then let go after such a short period? Has this happened to other people funded by HARC as well?

baybal2 9y ago

Where is the cat videos website guy who was researching "new types of cities?"

smikhanov 9y ago
He runs the show, so he doesn't need to submit any reports

zellyn 9y ago

Wow. Bret Victor's stuff is so incredibly human, and so incredibly useful. I want it!

GuiA 9y ago

It is my understanding that HARC has stopped funding Victor’s [1] and Hart’s [2] research. Is that accurate? Have other groups in the list suffered from the same fate? If so, how does that fit within HARC’s long term research strategy? These sort of initiatives rarely bear fruits in a single year. [1] http://elevr.com/elevr-leaving-ycr/ http://elevr.com/elevr-leaving-ycr/ [2] I was at Dynamic Land earlier this week, and they said they were closing down for the winter, actively looking for funding, and not reopening if they cannot provide said funding.

skadamat 9y ago
They may just be "hosting" them. Providing support, space, etc. It's a bit unclear actually. Actually, it looks like you're right that they're looking for funding. It seems like Microsoft is matching employee contributions to Dynamicland: https://twitter.com/DynamicWebPaige/status/918977770130206721 https://twitter.com/DynamicWebPaige/status/91897777013020672...
RubenSandwich 9y ago
I'm struggling to see how why Dynamic Land would be no longer be funded by HARC. Doesn't it fit the HARC goal of: "HARC’s mission is to ensure human wisdom exceeds human power, by inventing and freely sharing ideas and technology that allow all humans to see further and understand more deeply."[1] pretty well? Maybe HARC is just a year-long thing? If so Bret/Dynamic Land team can you please put up a Patreon account and let us fund you. I will gladly give money to you as it is the most human form of computing I have ever seen and would like progress on it to continue. [1] https://blog.ycombinator.com/harc/ https://blog.ycombinator.com/harc/
raphman 9y ago
Yoshiki Ohshima has left HARC, too, last month [1]. Has HARC been discontinued completely? [1] https://twitter.com/yoshikiohshima/status/904134118115393536 https://twitter.com/yoshikiohshima/status/904134118115393536
seltzered_ 9y ago
Jonathan Edwards (@johnathoda) also left HARC back in June: https://mobile.twitter.com/jonathoda/status/871784998113882118 https://mobile.twitter.com/jonathoda/status/8717849981138821...

westoncb 9y ago

Realtalk/Dynamicland is fascinating to me, though there's something about it which I haven't been able to get over, which is: how can it provide the kind of generality we're used to in computing without giving some set of re-combinable primitives? In other words, something like pixels where the primitive thing is simple and easy to configure algorithmically, and yet the range of configurations is vast enough to represent a large fraction of human imagination. I love 'being in the world' as opposed to sitting statically at a desk—but I would need something that could give me the similar feeling of vast possibilities when I consider what I'd like to build next. I wonder if some kind of re-combinable primitives for representation are part of the plan, or if it's an explicit aim of the project to avoid them—a kind of stance against abstraction, reduction, and uniformity. That's part of why it's so fascinating to me: I can't see a general enough system being built without that—but if it were to succeed, I'm fairly confident it would be one of the most interesting systems I'd ever encountered :) Edit: I should add: this is from what little I actually know about it. I've just seen a few few videos, read the blurb from the article, and read another article on the laser socks project which talked some about Realtalk.

skadamat 9y ago
Highly recommend Bret's 2 talks for context: [1] Seeing Spaces: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klTjiXjqHrQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klTjiXjqHrQ [2] Humane Representation of Thought: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agOdP2Bmieg&t=1913s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agOdP2Bmieg&t=1913s
- westoncb 9y ago
  I saw them both a while back, and reviewed the poster for Seeing Spaces just now. However, I haven't been unable to find anything that addresses the issue I brought up. I agree very much with most of the general principles Victor talks about (you can see my own extensive work on making program behavior visible here[0] for example)—but when it comes to the space concept, I have difficulty finding something concrete about how the space would be used beneficially. I get the flavor of this idea that your workspace should be 'extension of your body', but at this point, years after becoming familiar with it, I'd like to get more concrete on the subject. Dynamicland/Realtalk certainly are more concrete—but my thoughts on it are reflected in my first comment. [0] http://symbolflux.com/projects/avd http://symbolflux.com/projects/avd

bufo 9y ago

Looks like Bret Victor's paragraph was removed from the page? It still talks about "6 principal investigators" but lists 5.

skadamat 9y ago
Oh weird, maybe it's temporary? That's odd, it was just there a few hours ago.
- kennethfriedman 9y ago
  Doesn't seem like an accident to me. Here's the archive of the page before the edits: https://web.archive.org/web/20171026233121/https://harc.ycr.org/reports/ https://web.archive.org/web/20171026233121/https://harc.ycr....
  - gregsadetsky 9y ago
    Thanks for the link. In that paragraph (the one that was removed), there are two links to Bret’s website and both of those are now 404 as well... what’s going on? http://worrydream.com/HypercardInTheWorld/videos.html http://worrydream.com/HypercardInTheWorld/videos.html http://worrydream.com/oatmeal/realtalk-tech-teaser-2017-02-25.mov http://worrydream.com/oatmeal/realtalk-tech-teaser-2017-02-2...
    - Glench 9y ago
      I assume Bret just didn't want the work to be shown without context yet.

anoother 9y ago

Where is Bret Victor? > Here are year-end reports from HARC’s six Principal Investigators. Only 5 are listed...

endergen 9y ago
That's weird. He was there before.

OisinMoran 9y ago

Just a note that there is an unclosed quotation mark in the "physics" link in Vi Hart's section, causing it to not show and it also breaks the "hyperbolic space" link. Incredible work from an incredible team! Not sure why Bret Victor's section disappeared.

robertkrahn01 9y ago
Thanks!