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It's really, really not easy to stand up for the rights of Nazis. If you're a Nazi, you can use voat.co as they are very free speech oriented. You don't have to

• mozumder 9y ago
  Technically, you're supposed to actually kill Nazis, since the US government (and many others) literally declared war against them. Anything short of that is just a gratuity towards them. Honestly, Americans aren't horrified enough by the mere existence of these people, treating them as an academic concept. If you actually know Nazis, you already know they're an extremely violent group. It took only a few days of me being around Nazis before they literally tried to blow me up. They're not academic professors. They're violent and organized militants. Treat them as you would Al Queda or ISIS.
  • DasIch 9y ago
    Indeed as a German the idea that some people think appeasement is the right strategy to combat nazis is astonishing. You don't talk to nazis, you destroy them.
    • Wellshit 9y ago
      Ban this one as well, boys.
  • RightMillennial 9y ago
    > Technically, you're supposed to actually kill Nazis I'm shocked to actually see this sentiment on HN. You're technically supposed to kill Nazis? That war ended 70 years ago. While I have no sympathy for Nazis, advocating murdering them makes you no better than them. This is disgraceful.
    • mozumder 9y ago
      Sure let's see the legal terms of the surrender by the Nazis that allows them to continue to exist. I mean, we have that from imperial Japan. You should be able to produce a document from the Nazis as well that allows them to exist after the US government declared war on them, right?
  • Wellshit 9y ago
    > Technically, you're supposed to actually kill Nazis, since the US government (and many others) literally declared war against them. Technically, you're advocating for violence against a group of people. Should you be banned? Hope you can see the slippery slope.
    • mozumder 9y ago
      Me? It's the US government that's advocating violence against a group of people. If you have issues with killing Nazis, take it up with them. It's as if people have no idea what Nazis actually are.
      • Wellshit 9y ago
        Take a hard, deep and pondered look at what you wrote.
        • mozumder 9y ago
          I love that there are people that think of Nazis as an academic expression group, instead of as a militant organization. These people have NO idea...
          • Thisisdense 9y ago
            Wellshit here, got silenced by HN... They advocate for violence against a group of people and are banned. You advocate for violence against their group. Is your violence better than theirs? Why shouldn't you be banned? Disclaimer: not a nazi
          • dang 9y ago
            Would you please stop posting unsubstantive comments? You're flamebaiting to the point of trolling. (No, the mods are not Nazis.)
            • mozumder 9y ago
  • blfr 9y ago
    The United States declared war against the government of Germany, not "Nazis." It's in the declaration, twice: JOINT RESOLUTION Declaring That a State of War Exists Between The Government of Germany and the Government and the People of the United States and Making Provisions To Prosecute The Same ... the President is hereby authorized and directed to employ the entire naval and military forces of the United States and the resources of the Government to carry on war against the Government of Germany The responsibility for starting World War II falls squarely on Germany, not some udnefined group of national socialists.
    • mozumder 9y ago
      Nazis were the government of Germany.
  • dragonwriter 9y ago
    > Technically, you're supposed to actually kill Nazis, since the US government (and many others) literally declared war against them. No, the government declared war on Germany, not the Nazis. And that war ended with the surrender of the German military and the assumption of civil authority in Germany by the Allies, so killing people based on that war is no longer something anyone is supposed to do.
• cmac2992 9y ago
  Everybody is running into the same issue. Even voat is is banning "subreddits". Turns out managing UGC is a really hard problem. https://voat.co/v/announcements/163288 https://voat.co/v/announcements/163288
  • KGIII 9y ago
    Yeah, that was a couple of years ago and a clear line in the sand. No illegal content. A good choice. Free speech doesn't include illegal content. Well, it doesn't to most rational people.
    • hsod 9y ago
      > Free speech doesn't include illegal content Isn't that kind of begging the question? "Illegal content" is just a bunch of types of expression that the government has decided to ban. They are all exceptions to free speech which you accept, which brings your free-speech-absolutist stance into question.
      • KGIII 9y ago
        You assumed I was a free speech absolutist. I am not. I am not an extremist. Rights must have reasonable restrictions. They are things like libel, slander, child pornography, classified material by a person who has clearance, etc... Those are unlawful and are reasonable restrictions with very, very few restrictions. They may be published for use in the court, whistle blowing, or otherwise outlined affirmative defenses established by law or precedent. I am not an extremist. I am not an absolutist. The right has reasonable restrictions. The question is where those restrictions are. I think I've explained where I believe those should be, though they are scattered in a bunch of comments.
• sp332 9y ago
  They didn't ban all Nazis. They banned subreddits that posted content (not comments) advocating violence. That included one or two "nazi" subreddits. The article says this in the first paragraph. That said, thanks for trying to find positive ways to deal with things.
  • KGIII 9y ago
    The effect is largely the same, now isn't it? In fact, they recently published a study showing the efficacy of their sub closures from a couple of years ago. People leave, effectively silenced. They can do that. It is their right. It's okay.
    • sp332 9y ago
      I would guess that people left because there weren't many other subreddits with similar topics to the ones that were banned. But there are other nazi subreddits, and the mods made it clear that it's acceptable to be a nazi as long as they're not advocating violence too much. So I would be surprised if that many people actually left this time compared to last time.
• untog 9y ago
  According to a study about Reddit itself, banning can do some good: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/business/reddit-limits-noxious-content-by-giving-trolls-fewer-places-to-gather.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/business/reddit-limits-no... The general principle is sound - people get sucked into extremism when they stumble upon it on a large site like Reddit. Voat, on the other hand, you're not going to find unless you're looking for it.
  • KGIII 9y ago
    I mean overall. It helps Reddit maintain their goals. I meant more specifically the problem with, you know, the fact that we still have Nazis.
  • chiefalchemist 9y ago
    Perhaps. But at least those who are looking for it are full exposed and easy to see. They are the true extremists. Remove the honeypots (e.g., Reddit) then what?
• michaelchisari 9y ago
  there's a better way to deal with the mentally ill and disenfranchised Enabling them is not a good way to deal with them. Allowing easily discoverable safe spaces with which to reinforce their neuroses and paranoia only adds to the problem as new users can more easily be recruited, preyed upon, etc. This goes for much more than just violent white supremacists, it also applies to things like pro-ana, which creates an extremely dangerous feedback loop for vulnerable, damaged people. Private sites not only have no obligation to provide the resources for these extreme codependent communities, but as we're learning, they actually hold a moral obligation to remove them when they form in order to prevent their growth.
  • KGIII 9y ago
    I'd argue they have no moral obligation to do any such thing. However, they should probably make a pretty clear warning sign. I fear we will digress too far. In short, I'm very pro freedom of expression. I'm glad voat exists, for example. The people there are often horrible, that is true. But, they still deserve to express themselves freely.
    • michaelchisari 9y ago
      I don't understand why anyone deserves server space and labor resources. They are free to express themselves, but the cost of running a service is not free, and they have no right to those costs. They can stand in a public square and say what they like. They can have debates in their own living room. They can print up manifestos on their own dime. They have a right to do all of that, and nobody's arguing against that.
      • KGIII 9y ago
        It's a bit of a problem, really. They take URLs away, they refuse to host them, etc... So, I'd say what good are rights if you can't reasonably exercise them? Don't get me wrong, I really don't like Nazis. They are pretty much the definition of bad people. So, I try to empathize. We all want to belong to something. They like firearms. Me too. I love a good explosion, though I'd much prefer it not actually hurt anyone. If I can humanize them, I can understand that they too deserve basic human rights.
• briantakita 9y ago
  > I go there and talk to the White Nationalists. They are pretty much Nazis. Nazi is a term loosely used today. Actual 3rd Reich Nazis commandeered by America & the Soviet Union after WW2. Wernher von Braun was a committed Nazi & was allegedly a willing participate in WW2 war crimes. See Operation Paperclip for more info. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Operation_Paperclip https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Operation_Paperclip > They are scared and powerless, looking for meaning in their empty lives, easily swayed, and not entirely unaware of some of the ironies. White Nationalism is the natural response to Identity Politics. In a sense, I don't blame them for not taking the high road, since Identity Politics has not been kind toward white people & the majority of white people think they are discriminated against. Btw, every racial group thinks they are discriminated against, so it seems like Identity Politics leaves nobody happy. http://www.npr.org/2017/10/24/559604836/majority-of-white-americans-think-theyre-discriminated-against http://www.npr.org/2017/10/24/559604836/majority-of-white-am... This leads to the real problem being Identity Politics. White Nationalism, Black Power, La Raza, various Jewish groups, etc. are all entities that create dissonance in the communities of America. Whether the members have valid points or not, there is a sense of tribalism & the inherent backlash. While it's healthy to promote heritage, legacy, & the positive aspects of a cultural identity; Identity Politics sows division by redistributing opportunity (which is unfair from a merit standpoint) & transferring wealth via government policy. If we are to have a society based on hard work leading to just reward, where opportunity is given to all, then Identity Politics has no place in it. Even if Identity Politics were to balance opportunity, the underlying issues within communities are not addressed. Instead, the government manages opportunity leading to a culture of entitlement, laziness, dispute, grudges, & group hostility.
  • neo4sure 9y ago
    Hmmmmm weren't we talking about Nazis, not identity politics...
    • briantakita 9y ago
      What's your definition of a Nazi? It's difficult to talk about a word that has a fuzzy meaning. To some elements of the the modern left (i.e. Antifa), it seems like anybody who does not agree with certain ideologies, such as "Equality" (in the Identity Politics sense; again "Equality" has a fuzzy meaning), is equated with being a Nazi. To paraphrase what I wrote above, the White Nationalist (aka "the Nazis") movement only gains followers due to the prevalence of Identity Politics being used to affect policy benefiting certain minority groups. White Nationalism is Identity Politics for White People; seeking to use politics to benefit White People and/or creating a white ethno-state. Are you seeing the connection? Is this any different from groups such as La Raza, the Black Panthers, or any other ethno-state group? If so, how?
• eljimmy 9y ago
  I thought voat.co was good in theory, a place like Reddit without limitations. Went back the other day after a few months of not visiting and read through some threads. The amount of racism was really noticeable. Seems to be descending into a place where an individual can let their ignorance and bigotry fester among like-minded peers. I suppose that's the ugly side of having freedom of expression.
• likpok 9y ago
  There was a study a while back that suggested that reddit's banning of hate groups really did reduce the amount of hate on reddit. That is: GreatApes didn't go and infect other subreddits, and there was a real reduction in the hate on reddit. That doesn't mean that everyone didn't go off to voat or whatever, but then they have to rely on voat for growth, and can't piggyback on reddit's MAUs.
• chiefalchemist 9y ago
  Full disclosure: I'm a white male. With that said, I agree with you. That is, bringing these things into the light will do more good then empowering them by marginalizing them. As you've experienced, by shining your personal flashlight (so to speak), they wither in the light. Yes, what they're selling is deplorable. But if you believe that the arc of the universe bends towards justice, then letting them stand in the spotlight will show how weak their arguments are. On the other hand, pushing them into the shadows is where they find their strength. p.s. Kudos to you for being so brave.
  • KGIII 9y ago
    Meh, the thread is dead so I just wanted to say thanks. I am kinda passionate about certain things like liberty. I'm actually pretty moderate, just verbose. I'm not scared. They don't scare me. They put on a tough face. I've been in places like Somalia. I've stomped all across South America. I've been all across Latin America. I've done South Africa, most of the Middle East, much of Asia, etc... American White Nationalists marching in parades scare me exactly none. 14 year old American children copying their older brothers on Voat saddens me, not scares me. It doesn't make me very angry. Not anymore. I'm pretty desensitized to it. It mostly just makes me sad. Seriously... Think about it... Put yourself in a White Nationalist shoes. You don't even have any real good movies to watch. Even documentaries end with Hitler always getting his ass kicked. In every movie, you're pretty much the asshole. You're, at best, redeemed before dying or going to prison for life. Man, a White Nationalist can't even really enjoy American History X. I make fun of them for reading Mein Kampf. "Oh, you expect it to somehow turn out different this time?" I point out the horrible flaws in their race war logic, about how they are horrible out numbered, unpopular, and simply lack the technical expertise or the logistics to achieve even a remote victory in any meaningful numbers. I make fun of their horrible use of statistics, inaccurate understanding of science and history, and teach them to speak better English. After all, if you're going to convert people to you're side, you're going to have to speak better English. They really aren't very crafty and it's actually kind of amusing that people think they are a serious threat to the fabric of the country. But, I digress... I just wanted to let you know that there's no bravery. I'm not scared because there's no reason to be scared. I've really invited a few of them to my home. They have my address and a standing invitation. I'd let them visit but not like hold a Nazi rally at my house. The few I have invited are a few that I believe are able to change. I wasn't doing anything better with my time.
• FrankenTan 9y ago
  Being a Nazi isnt a mental illness. Sane people were nazis. Last time Nazis were in power they, in fact, murder quite a lot of mentally ill people. Nazis also dont need to be in power to kill people. Nazis already kill people. Being organized and in sufficent numbers is enough. Being in power mainly means they have less resistance and more ability to do so.
  • notyourday 9y ago
    What's your opinion of people wearing Che T-shirts?
• zghst 9y ago
  I’ve know a few white surpremacist in my life, same take. All scared, powerless, in bad health, drinking and eating bad, love conspiracies. All say “You don’t talk like your color, etc, etc.” I do not endorse or share their views however I believe they have a right to self organize and believe what they do. That being said, businesses have rights to deny services to whoever they please. Especially people who are bad for business!