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Georgia election server wiped after lawsuit filed
- idibidiart 9y agoData Recovery tools can still get the data, no?
- partycoder 9y agoNot if they were careful enough to overwrite the free disk space with more data.
- idibidiart 9y agoBut then that would incriminate them even more! right? because it's not just "We erased it to make room for new data" ... This is in the realm of obstruction of justice.
- neuronexmachina 9y agoThey could claim the wipe was to protect voter privacy though, in which case one would expect them to make the data unrecoverable.
- idibidiart 9y ago"They could claim the wipe was to protect voter privacy though, in which case one would expect them to make the data unrecoverable." Not after a lawsuit is filed. That's obstruction of justice regardless of what they claim. No?
- misnome 9y agoYes and no. If the "standard procedure" when they normally wipe the data as part of routine is to overwrite (Which I'd probably hope so) then the fact that they did so a) Makes it impossible to recover, and b) Doesn't make the action any more incriminating. This is entirely separate from questions of obstruction of justice.
- alsetmusic 9y agoCan anyone comment on viability of recovering a multiple degaussing? > The new e-mails, which were sent by the Coalition for Good Governance to Ars, show that Chris Dehner, one of the Information Security staffers, e-mailed his boss, Stephen Gay, to say that the two backup servers had been "degaussed three times." https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/10/days-after-activists-sued-georgias-election-server-was-wiped-clean/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/10/days-after-activ...
- idibidiart 9y agoI think the email itself is evidence of crime. Why bother with recovering the data when the absence of it allows the prosecution to portray the worst imaginable criminal scenario. They actually shot themselves in the foot because no matter how bad their crime is it cannot be as bad as erasing the data and degaussing 3 times. The prosecution can claim the absolute worst has happened. And they have no way to prove them wrong. And a murder weapon (the email)
- prebrov 9y agoProsecution cannot claim anything without evidence. Now there’s only evidence of obstruction of justice by some IT manager, but no evidence to support charges of election fraud by executive branch of government.
- askvictor 9y agoThere should be laws that give the benefit of the doubt to the prosecution/litigant in situations like this. Not holding my breath though.
- colejohnson66 9y agoGiving the benefit of the doubt to the prosecutor goes against the “innocent until proven guily” ideology. You’re basically saying, “he unknowingly deleted evidence he didn’t know was evidence. That proves it’s a conspiracy because we now don’t have evidence to prove our case” It’s the reason cops are seen as immune to the law; The courts give them the benefit of the doubt a lot.
- marchenko 9y agoThe lack of paper ballots or hardcopy proof of voter intent in the GA system is unacceptable. Transparency and verifiability - using means comprehensible to the average voter - are more important to free and fair elections than efficiency.
- sambull 9y agoWithout verifiable paper receipt and ballot electronic voting just can't be trusted.
- Mikeb85 9y agoIsn't that the point? What incumbent government wants it to be possible to lose?
- r3bl 9y agoThat's not even the top problem with electronic voting in my book. Counting is. If there's one central machine crunching all the raw data, you can bet your ass that every APT out there is going to be looking at the possibility of completely changing the outcome of the elections. The way this problem is tackled with ballots is rather simple: way too many people to bribe to change the outcome.
- dzdt 9y agoIsn't this solved by transparency? Each precinct publicly reports their results, then news agencies and data junkies independently verify totals. Combine with a paper trail and random audit on a statistically significant set of precincts.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago> The way this problem is tackled with ballots is rather simple: way too many people to bribe to change the outcome I think we do this correctly in New York City, where I am an election worker from time to time. Voters mark a paper ballot that is electronically counted. Every counting machine continuously shows two numbers: the number of ballots it has ever received, and the number it has received in that day's election. Multiple people at each poll site sign off on these numbers at the start and end of each day. Lots of people, from parties, interested groups, et cetera, personally verify these numbers throughout the day. (We call these people "observers." Anyone can be one.) At the end of the day, the poll numbers are printed directly from each machine and posted for observation. They are also transmitted, electronically, to HQ. Poll observers like to observe and independently record these numbers. Finally, the NYPD carts away the paper ballots for archiving. To corrupt this system, you'd have to overwhelm a majority of the poll workers, poll observers, and NYPD officers transmitting the paper ballots at every precinct in your jurisdiction. That's hard. (The system isn't perfect. The sign offs we're supposed to do at day's end are done at the beginning, because people want to get out early. This weakens, but does not break, the chain of trust and custody I described above. TL; DR If you care about this, please sign up as a poll worker.)
- ddoolin 9y agoHow is this not immediately obstruction of justice? The article makes it seem like they know who actually wiped it, so just ask them who ordered it and follow the trail, no? It can't even be an accident since not one but two backups were also wiped.
- amigoingtodie 9y agoBecause you have to pay to even read the state laws of Georgia, so nobody knows the law?
- edoceo 9y agoWut?
- alsetmusic 9y agoThey were referencing this: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/03/public-records-activist-violated-copyright-by-publishing-georgia-legal-code-online/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/03/public-records-a...
- lovich 9y agoThe text of Georgias law is publicly available, but there is a version with annotations from legal precendents that is considered necessary to understand the law as it is currently interpreted. LexisNexis collates those annotations for the state of Georgia and maintains a copyright on the annotations, you cannot access them without paying. The government in Georgia feel this is perfectly acceptable as you can tehcnically access the law even though, in practice, you have no idea
- rayiner 9y agoThe annotated version is freely available: http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/gacode/default.asp http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/gacode/default.asp. What the kerfuffle is about is that the State of Georgia has (1) Georgia law is highly unusual in giving the annotations authoritative force; (2) the State of Georgia has asserted copyright over the annotated version.
- osteele 9y agoFor a framework for thinking about election technology infrastructure and its risks, I recommend reading: [1] OSET Institute web site, http://www.osetfoundation.org/ http://www.osetfoundation.org/ [2] “Critical Technology Infrastructure: Protecting American Elections in the Digital Age”, OSET Institute. PDF https://static1.squarespace.com/static/528d46a2e4b059766439fa8b/t/59b6d51abe42d62214611741/1505154333505/2017_oset-cdi_briefing1.pdf https://static1.squarespace.com/static/528d46a2e4b059766439f... I’m not affiliated with OSET; just co-teaching a college co-curricular on election technology, that includes this material.
- wyc 9y agoThank you for the links, I had no idea about OSET, but find them really interesting. It's always good to look at prior work before rushing in with the new shiny technologies of the month.
- menerva 9y agomagnets - how do they work?
- ainiriand 9y agoPlease, lets try to keep HN a bit different from Reddit. We only ask for informative comments that really add to the discussion, thanks!
- aceon48 9y agoWhoever wiped it needs to burn in jail for decades
- howard941 9y agoSpoliation
- wglb 9y agoExactly.
- ajr0 9y ago(From wikipedia)[0] Spoliation has three possible consequences: in jurisdictions where the (intentional) act is criminal by statute, it may result in fines and incarceration (if convicted in a separate criminal proceeding) for the parties who engaged in the spoliation; in jurisdictions where relevant case law precedent has been established, proceedings possibly altered by spoliation may be interpreted under a spoliation inference, or by other corrective measures, depending on the jurisdiction; in some jurisdictions the act of spoliation can itself be an actionable tort [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoliation_of_evidence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoliation_of_evidence
- deltamidway 9y agoIf there is "nothing to ever see" then there is no reason to verify....right guys and girls? Right? So frustrating. We should be having a large national initiative to improve voting nationwide.
- wyc 9y agoI feel that voting data should be made public record after de-identifying individuals. This is one area where stronger standards and norms may be helpful. If there was a market for third-party voter archival services at low costs, this would be far less likely. The storage and technology should be very cheap, especially with the blockchain hype floating around. As skeptical as I am of new regulation, the requirement that de-identified voting data is made broadly available, and for all intents and purposes, immutable, sounds like a reasonable one worthy of further investigation. Some governments already use similar services to archive emergency responses from social media, as is required by law in many jurisdictions[1]. That voter data, the foundations of the democratic US society, doesn't receive the same treatment is truly awful. [1] https://archivesocial.com/ https://archivesocial.com/
- caf 9y agoAs an example of this, see here for the 2016 Australian Senate election results: http://results.aec.gov.au/20499/website/SenateDownloadsMenu-20499-Csv.htm http://results.aec.gov.au/20499/website/SenateDownloadsMenu-... The large ZIP files under "Formal preferences" contain every vote.
- PatientTrades 9y agoWiping a server while under investigation or at the threat of a potential investigation should automatically be obstruction of justice. This happens far too often in politics and white collar crimes. Disgraceful
- tobetobe 9y agoall the tech companies meet president one day before election on tv, next day president supporter wins georgia election. there is no connection at all. why r we even voting? have we not realized that we are all jus being pranked at a massive scale. r v that dumb to not see it. is thr any option for alternate rule to be switched any time in the timeline. i hope thr r still some good people with authority, it is time for u to come out and i am sure u ll gain all the support u demand.
- sandworm101 9y agoIf that were actually true then we would see wild differentials between poles and election results. I admit the possibility that results may be shifted a few percent either way, enough to swing an election, but this will only ever be at the margins. Should the population be truly set on one candidate or the other (more than 5% difference) then rigging would differ from poling very significantly and be detected.
- kristopolous 9y agoYou'd hope so but in practice, this gets reported as the polls being off and there's speculation about ivory tower intellects not asking the right people or using outdated methodologies ... the news media and mathematicians get blamed for being wrong. This is what actually happens.
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- matt_wulfeck 9y ago> The server’s data was destroyed July 7 by technicians at the Center for Elections Systems at Kennesaw State University I'm willing to bet that there was a whispered conversation between somebody in authority to a subordinate, promising to protect them if they'll take care of it. Let this be a warning to everybody: you need to cover your butts. The pressure can be really great in situations like this, but if anything hits the fan you better believe the manager will toss you under a boss.
- metalliqaz 9y agoMost subordinates don't even require that assurance. They somehow actually believe that they are doing the right thing.
- neuronexmachina 9y agoThis is worrisome: > It’s not clear who ordered the server’s data irretrievably erased. The Kennesaw election center answers to Georgia’s secretary of state, Brian Kemp, a Republican who is running for governor in 2018 and is the main defendant in the suit. ... The server data could have revealed whether Georgia’s most recent elections were compromised by malicious hackers. The plaintiffs contend that the results of both last November’s election and a special June 20 congressional runoff — won by Kemp’s predecessor, Karen Handel — cannot be trusted.
- DoodleBuggy 9y agoIs there anyone who trusts electronic voting machines? Go back to paper voting with a verifiable carbon copy record already.
- colejohnson66 9y agoGovernments aren’t too keen on tossing out stuff they spent millions on. Especially if they bought it because “computers solve everything”
- scarface74 9y agoAs a resident of Georgia, I really wish we had two states - metro Atlanta and the rest of GA. I lived in south GA from the time I was born until graduating from college and then moved to Atlanta. When I go back home it's like another world.
- comicjk 9y agoSame in NYC, but I don't think splitting states is the answer (or possible). Very few states would be intact if we started that. We should allow more legal autonomy for counties, to reduce intra-state political struggles. And maybe do "foreign" (intra-state) student exchange programs.
- commandar 9y agoAs a Columbus resident, this city leans more liberal than many of the ATL burbs. Same goes for Savannah.
- scarface74 9y agoIt’s not the liberal vs conservative. I am an African American living in a county that made national news 30 years ago for not exactly being welcoming to minorities. If you’re from GA you know where I’m talking about. Just search for “Oprah GA”. It’s definitely still very conservative but it feels more Romney conservative than Trump populist. I’ve never felt any weird vibes here.
- commandar 9y agoWell, what I was getting at is that there are places in Georgia that aren't Atlanta metro that have far more in common with ATL than they do e.g., Collquit County. It's the same as in most states - the divide is urban/rural and racial diversity. Places like Columbus, Savannah, Macon, or Augusta don't feel anything like the rural counties.
- dsfyu404ed 9y ago> the divide is urban/rural and racial diversity It's not even a race thing for the most part. City white people have a lot of the same political leanings as city black people. Same goes for country. Sure there's different cultures but the urban/rural divide is constant for any given skin color.
- alhart2015 9y agoSomeone tell me why this is a silly thing to say: It is naive to trust that US elections are valid demonstrations of democracy.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago> It is naive to trust that US elections are valid demonstrations of democracy What do "trust", "valid" and "democracy" mean in this context? Let me re-phrase your question in an attempt to answer it. Strong form: "Do American elections reflect the will of the populace?" Semi-weak form: "Do American elections reflect the votes of the voting populace?" Weak form: "Does the American system of governance work better than others?" On the strong form, I don't know. Measuring the "will of the populace" and defining a nation's "populace" is a philosophical question. On the semi-weak form, probably. For every Georgia there are 49 other states. The American electoral system is distributed. Flattening distributions brings buys resilience at the cost of moronic outliers (like this). The same factors that make coördinating systemic changes tough thwart efforts at electoral corruption. On the weak form, very probably. We just don't have a multi century, multigenerational society that has generated as much wealth for as many people while confronting the number of difficult questions the American system has. It's far from perfect. But its base assumptions about separation of powers, peaceful change of guard and an independent judiciary appear correct. Notably, no competitors to the Washington Consensus boast those three attributes.
- ux4 9y agoNotice it was wiped on July 7th, over 3 months ago and this information is barely being reported. It's also very peculiar the two backups were subsequently wiped and degaussed in early August. To top it all off, the FBI isn't sure if they still have the image or not? Isn't that highly confidential data that's critical evidence for a federal case?
- ajhurliman 9y agoI hate to be that guy that brings blockchains into things, but isn't this like the one blockchains are really good at? Why haven't we switched technologies already? Honest question, I'm all ears if there's a good rebuttal.
- epistasis 9y agoHow would blockchain help this in the least? Paper ballots work really well too, and though they can go missing just like files get deleted, it's pretty easy to see that.
- amitbr 9y agoBlockchain would definitely solve this: Traceability, verifiability (no double casting). If you dont trust the counters (which no1 in america should) you can also use a form of Secure Multiparty Computation to hide the outcome from the counters until the last ballot is cast. So ya.
- crooked-v 9y ago> you can also use a form of Secure Multiparty Computation to hide the outcome from the counters until the last ballot is cast That sounds like a terrible idea. What happens when somebody tries to hold the election process hostage by not casting a vote?
- buttcoinslol 9y agoThat will never happen because voting happens during a finite window of time.
- em3rgent0rdr 9y agoBlockchain is not necessarily the only answer for everything. The important thing is that the voting scheme is end-to-end verifiable. Even paper would work, although less efficiently. But there are plenty of other technical solutions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-to-end_auditable_voting_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-to-end_auditable_voting_sy...