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> For instance, he has the right to make violent threats in certain circumstances compared to normal citizens. No one has the 'right' to make violent threats o

> For instance, he has the right to make violent threats in certain circumstances compared to normal citizens. No one has the 'right' to make violent threats on twitter. It is a private service with a ToS. There are no principled reasons to treat the president as a special case here. The practical reason is simply that it is often and free advertising for them and the terms of service dictate what they can do when breached; not what they must do.

tertius 9y ago
> No one has the 'right' to make violent threats on twitter. I never claimed this. My argument hinges on the fact that he has the right, in certain circumstances, to make violent threats as opposed to normal citizens. The TOS is written for normal citizens because it is indeed illegal for normal citizens to do so. And I therefore agree with you that the TOS technically does not allow any violent threats on twitter. I do not think it is unreasonable to allow the President to communicate his threats on Twitter, a modern means of communication. I think it's actually a good thing to allow, for this and all future presidents. Again, letter of the TOS vs. spirit of the TOS.
- albinofrenchy 9y ago
  POTUS has no more rights by law than any other citizen to make violent threats. POTUS has _authority_ to enact those threats in certain cases whereas one typically doesn't. For instance -- I have the right to say 'Nazis should be punched in the face' in most circumstances. It would violate Twitter TOS to tweet that however and they'd be well within their right to take that message down or ban the account. The 'spirit' of the TOS is civility in most part, not legality. Donald Trumps twitter account isn't civil. And if you disagree about that, or about the spirit of the TOS so be it -- that is why things like terms of service are held to the more objective letter, and not the highly subjective spirit.
  - tertius 9y ago
    > POTUS has no more rights by law than any other citizen to make violent threats. > POTUS has _authority_ to enact those threats in certain cases whereas one typically doesn't. The first quote deals with the threat. The second deals with "enacting the threats." So if you claim that he has no right to make a threat, then how can he enact something that he has no right to say? Regardless, I'm only speaking on his legal right to make threats. And yes, he does have a legal right to make violent threats. And no, Twitter's TOS does not prohibit uncivil language with a broad brush. But I agree with you that it is not purely based in law, but civility certainly is based in moral law. > that is why things like terms of service are held to the more objective letter, and not the highly subjective spirit. You mean as in the case that we're discussing?
    - albinofrenchy 9y ago
      > So if you claim that he has not right to make a threat, then how can he enact something that he has no right to say? No, I'm claiming he has no more legal right to make threats than any other person. There is a large difference there. Largely speaking a persons right to make threats is protected under the first amendment. There are very narrow instances where verbal or written threats become assault (or terrorism, or attempts to incite a riot, etc); and since one of the criteria there is ability to carry out threat, someone in a position of power has somewhat more liability here, not less. Which is all besides the point -- twitter isn't a government entity; your first amendment protections don't apply to their ban hammer. Their rules and regulations are more restrictive in all cases than what is allowed by law. > You mean as in the case that we're discussing? I mean, yes? My point is that a) Trump is in technical violation of the TOS and b) The TOS constrains the behaviors of the users, not Twitter so they have no real obligation to enforce it.
      - tertius 9y ago
        Let me be frank. > that is why things like terms of service are held to the more objective letter, and not the highly subjective spirit. I replied. > You mean as in the case that we're discussing? Clearly your objection is that the TOS is not held in this case at all. Which could indicate that they're failing to act or they are interpreting their TOS subjectively per his special role. > No, I'm claiming he has no more legal right to make threats than any other person. This is not about freedom of speech. This is about his position, that threats are sometimes part of negotiation and he can legally threaten (as an example). Large classes of other people cannot, for instance, negotiate on behalf of the U.S. We're not arguing about the same thing here.
makomk 9y ago
A ToS which the tweets people are complaining that Twitter didn't ban Trump for did not violate. I mean, it should be obvious why Twitter doesn't consider support for war to violate the ToS clause on violence - otherwise, every publication which ran an op-ed supporting military intervention and linked it on Twitter would be violating the ToS. Not only that, there was a huge overlap between the people calling for Trump to be banned and the pro-nazi-punching (and pro-punching-anyone-who-wasn't-pro-nazi-punching) crowd who had been taking full advantage of the laxity of Twitter's "violence" clause in the ToS. There underlying logic of the demands made no sense at all, but it didn't matter. Believing Trump had violated the Twitter ToS and should be banned was simply something you did if you weren't an evil Nazi Trump supporter.
- albinofrenchy 9y ago
  Trump has violated that TOS aplenty[0]. The NK non-sense wasn't even the first thing I thought violated the TOS; he basically harasses someone new every few weeks punctuated by retweeting gifs of him punching CNN or knocking Clinton out with a golf ball. 0: https://www.wired.com/story/twitter-ban-donald-trump/ https://www.wired.com/story/twitter-ban-donald-trump/

tertius 9y ago

> No one has the 'right' to make violent threats on twitter. I never claimed this. My argument hinges on the fact that he has the right, in certain circumstances, to make violent threats as opposed to normal citizens. The TOS is written for normal citizens because it is indeed illegal for normal citizens to do so. And I therefore agree with you that the TOS technically does not allow any violent threats on twitter. I do not think it is unreasonable to allow the President to communicate his threats on Twitter, a modern means of communication. I think it's actually a good thing to allow, for this and all future presidents. Again, letter of the TOS vs. spirit of the TOS.

albinofrenchy 9y ago
POTUS has no more rights by law than any other citizen to make violent threats. POTUS has _authority_ to enact those threats in certain cases whereas one typically doesn't. For instance -- I have the right to say 'Nazis should be punched in the face' in most circumstances. It would violate Twitter TOS to tweet that however and they'd be well within their right to take that message down or ban the account. The 'spirit' of the TOS is civility in most part, not legality. Donald Trumps twitter account isn't civil. And if you disagree about that, or about the spirit of the TOS so be it -- that is why things like terms of service are held to the more objective letter, and not the highly subjective spirit.
- tertius 9y ago
  > POTUS has no more rights by law than any other citizen to make violent threats. > POTUS has _authority_ to enact those threats in certain cases whereas one typically doesn't. The first quote deals with the threat. The second deals with "enacting the threats." So if you claim that he has no right to make a threat, then how can he enact something that he has no right to say? Regardless, I'm only speaking on his legal right to make threats. And yes, he does have a legal right to make violent threats. And no, Twitter's TOS does not prohibit uncivil language with a broad brush. But I agree with you that it is not purely based in law, but civility certainly is based in moral law. > that is why things like terms of service are held to the more objective letter, and not the highly subjective spirit. You mean as in the case that we're discussing?
  - albinofrenchy 9y ago
    > So if you claim that he has not right to make a threat, then how can he enact something that he has no right to say? No, I'm claiming he has no more legal right to make threats than any other person. There is a large difference there. Largely speaking a persons right to make threats is protected under the first amendment. There are very narrow instances where verbal or written threats become assault (or terrorism, or attempts to incite a riot, etc); and since one of the criteria there is ability to carry out threat, someone in a position of power has somewhat more liability here, not less. Which is all besides the point -- twitter isn't a government entity; your first amendment protections don't apply to their ban hammer. Their rules and regulations are more restrictive in all cases than what is allowed by law. > You mean as in the case that we're discussing? I mean, yes? My point is that a) Trump is in technical violation of the TOS and b) The TOS constrains the behaviors of the users, not Twitter so they have no real obligation to enforce it.
    - tertius 9y ago
      Let me be frank. > that is why things like terms of service are held to the more objective letter, and not the highly subjective spirit. I replied. > You mean as in the case that we're discussing? Clearly your objection is that the TOS is not held in this case at all. Which could indicate that they're failing to act or they are interpreting their TOS subjectively per his special role. > No, I'm claiming he has no more legal right to make threats than any other person. This is not about freedom of speech. This is about his position, that threats are sometimes part of negotiation and he can legally threaten (as an example). Large classes of other people cannot, for instance, negotiate on behalf of the U.S. We're not arguing about the same thing here.

makomk 9y ago

A ToS which the tweets people are complaining that Twitter didn't ban Trump for did not violate. I mean, it should be obvious why Twitter doesn't consider support for war to violate the ToS clause on violence - otherwise, every publication which ran an op-ed supporting military intervention and linked it on Twitter would be violating the ToS. Not only that, there was a huge overlap between the people calling for Trump to be banned and the pro-nazi-punching (and pro-punching-anyone-who-wasn't-pro-nazi-punching) crowd who had been taking full advantage of the laxity of Twitter's "violence" clause in the ToS. There underlying logic of the demands made no sense at all, but it didn't matter. Believing Trump had violated the Twitter ToS and should be banned was simply something you did if you weren't an evil Nazi Trump supporter.

albinofrenchy 9y ago
Trump has violated that TOS aplenty[0]. The NK non-sense wasn't even the first thing I thought violated the TOS; he basically harasses someone new every few weeks punctuated by retweeting gifs of him punching CNN or knocking Clinton out with a golf ball. 0: https://www.wired.com/story/twitter-ban-donald-trump/ https://www.wired.com/story/twitter-ban-donald-trump/