3 ms·

>I feel like the fury over it is very reactionary. I think the fact that the core of our democracy was attacked with a vast and sophisticated operation by a fo

>I feel like the fury over it is very reactionary. I think the fact that the core of our democracy was attacked with a vast and sophisticated operation by a foreign government to potentially prop up a candidate both friendly to and quite possibly compromised by that foreign government should lead to MORE fury than is currently happening.

1001101 9y ago
Democracy is the heart of the US, and an attack on it is an existential threat. If there's any evidence of this, it should be responded to with due measure. This is nothing new though. For decades (perhaps longer), democracies have been subverted and are, unfortunately, a liability for many countries. Patriots see it as their duty to protect their countries by insulating themselves against this subversion and consolidating power. It's a dangerous trend.
- pjc50 9y ago
  > an attack on it is an existential threat You may want to investigate the voter ID / disenfranchisement question.
  - 1001101 9y ago
    I have, it makes my blood boil. Don't get me started on Citizens United. Indeed, foreign governments aren't the only threat.
- beepboopbeep 9y ago
  >This is nothing new though. No one is arguing if it's new. The point is it was massive, sophisticated, and targeted. It was an organized attack. We can debate the history of election subversion some other time, but there is a real threat happening right now. Let's focus on that, yes?
  - 1001101 9y ago
    The only piece of solid evidence I personally have inventoried so far is about 100k$ ad spend on divisive issues, rather than supporting a particular candidate. That was not massive (compared to campaign billions). It was targeted at regions and individuals. As far as sophistication, some of the ads I have seen didn't have proper grammar and spelling - they didn't seem credible to my bologna detector. These ads were likely a foreign psychological operation, and have no place in our political discourse, but I guess I'd like to see more before we gut the Bill of Rights. If these ads were enough to subvert our democratic institutions, there's nothing but trouble ahead.
    - beepboopbeep 9y ago
      >before we gut the Bill of Rights. What are you talking about?
grandalf 9y ago
There hasn't been any evidence of anything other than minor mischief. This has become an issue in the US because loyalists of one party think that their candidate should have won and see the issue as some sort of vindication.
- beepboopbeep 9y ago
  >There hasn't been any evidence of anything other than minor mischief. The son of the candidate openly admitted to meeting with Russian foreign agents in order to secure a quid pro quo agreement (and that doesn't even touch on Flynn and Manafort). We have evidence of pen testing on voting infrastructure, we have copious amounts of evidence of psychological operations currently on-going from Russian services via social media. This isn't about clinton, this is about defending the core of our democracy from foreign powers. It's obscene to try and shrug it off with such shallow cynicism.
  - grandalf 9y ago
    > son of the candidate openly admitted to meeting with Russian foreign agents Yet the "dossier" that was paid for via a quid pro quo arrangement is not of concern? IMHO both are very concerning. > pen testing on voting infrastructure Have you heard that an un-patched windows computer connected to an open internet connection will be pwned in minutes? This is only possible because of massive "pen testing" being done on all IP addresses. So of course companies that manufacture voting equipment and have public IP addresses for web or email servers will be "pen tested". Where will that traffic originate from? Probably in one of the many places where there is a lot of cyber fraud. Russia/Ukraine is one of those places. Without very hard, detailed evidence it is not reasonable to conclude that any such efforts were connected to the Russian government. We have not been given any evidence, we've simply been told to believe this highly politicized narrative. I'm not ready to do that until there has been actual evidence. > psychological operations currently on-going from Russian services via social media. So you consider RT publishing stories about the Flint Water Crisis to be highly detrimental to the orderly nature of American society? News orgs are supposed to publish true stories that point out problems that need to be solved. It's sad and reminiscent of highly compliant citizens of a facist regime that anyone can take seriously the idea that stories in RT about Flint MI or about Laquan McDonald are endangering American stability.

1001101 9y ago

Democracy is the heart of the US, and an attack on it is an existential threat. If there's any evidence of this, it should be responded to with due measure. This is nothing new though. For decades (perhaps longer), democracies have been subverted and are, unfortunately, a liability for many countries. Patriots see it as their duty to protect their countries by insulating themselves against this subversion and consolidating power. It's a dangerous trend.

pjc50 9y ago
> an attack on it is an existential threat You may want to investigate the voter ID / disenfranchisement question.
- 1001101 9y ago
  I have, it makes my blood boil. Don't get me started on Citizens United. Indeed, foreign governments aren't the only threat.
beepboopbeep 9y ago
>This is nothing new though. No one is arguing if it's new. The point is it was massive, sophisticated, and targeted. It was an organized attack. We can debate the history of election subversion some other time, but there is a real threat happening right now. Let's focus on that, yes?
- 1001101 9y ago
  The only piece of solid evidence I personally have inventoried so far is about 100k$ ad spend on divisive issues, rather than supporting a particular candidate. That was not massive (compared to campaign billions). It was targeted at regions and individuals. As far as sophistication, some of the ads I have seen didn't have proper grammar and spelling - they didn't seem credible to my bologna detector. These ads were likely a foreign psychological operation, and have no place in our political discourse, but I guess I'd like to see more before we gut the Bill of Rights. If these ads were enough to subvert our democratic institutions, there's nothing but trouble ahead.
  - beepboopbeep 9y ago
    >before we gut the Bill of Rights. What are you talking about?

grandalf 9y ago

There hasn't been any evidence of anything other than minor mischief. This has become an issue in the US because loyalists of one party think that their candidate should have won and see the issue as some sort of vindication.

beepboopbeep 9y ago
>There hasn't been any evidence of anything other than minor mischief. The son of the candidate openly admitted to meeting with Russian foreign agents in order to secure a quid pro quo agreement (and that doesn't even touch on Flynn and Manafort). We have evidence of pen testing on voting infrastructure, we have copious amounts of evidence of psychological operations currently on-going from Russian services via social media. This isn't about clinton, this is about defending the core of our democracy from foreign powers. It's obscene to try and shrug it off with such shallow cynicism.
- grandalf 9y ago
  > son of the candidate openly admitted to meeting with Russian foreign agents Yet the "dossier" that was paid for via a quid pro quo arrangement is not of concern? IMHO both are very concerning. > pen testing on voting infrastructure Have you heard that an un-patched windows computer connected to an open internet connection will be pwned in minutes? This is only possible because of massive "pen testing" being done on all IP addresses. So of course companies that manufacture voting equipment and have public IP addresses for web or email servers will be "pen tested". Where will that traffic originate from? Probably in one of the many places where there is a lot of cyber fraud. Russia/Ukraine is one of those places. Without very hard, detailed evidence it is not reasonable to conclude that any such efforts were connected to the Russian government. We have not been given any evidence, we've simply been told to believe this highly politicized narrative. I'm not ready to do that until there has been actual evidence. > psychological operations currently on-going from Russian services via social media. So you consider RT publishing stories about the Flint Water Crisis to be highly detrimental to the orderly nature of American society? News orgs are supposed to publish true stories that point out problems that need to be solved. It's sad and reminiscent of highly compliant citizens of a facist regime that anyone can take seriously the idea that stories in RT about Flint MI or about Laquan McDonald are endangering American stability.