8 ms·

When I read that I was fuming on behalf of all the interns that have to put up with this sort of crap. It's disgusting. The original poster has named the compan

When I read that I was fuming on behalf of all the interns that have to put up with this sort of crap. It's disgusting. The original poster has named the company as "Bee Technologies Inc" [1]. They're also advertising for a "Junior Front End Engineer" for no salary and 2-5% equity. They seem to think they are doing the world a favour. Arrogance in the highest. [2] [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/78rhz7/this_startup_asked_me_to_do_a_project_for_an/dowook9/ https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/78rhz7/t... [2] https://angel.co/bee-technologies-inc/jobs/275465-junior-front-end-engineer https://angel.co/bee-technologies-inc/jobs/275465-junior-fro...

holtalanm 9y ago
_holy shit_ Yeah, this company is the absolute worst. I would also bet that the engineer would get fired before ever being able to cash out on that equity.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
onychomys 9y ago
I wonder what they expect the dev to eat while he's working for them. Do they have free cookies every day in the office? The dev had better hope so! Oh, or there's calories in regular Coke, so as long as the guy doesn't prefer diet, maybe he can subsist on that!
- holtalanm 9y ago
  Well, when I was in college I think I survived on nothing but Mountain Dew and ramen. So....maybe that is what they expect?
  - actsasbuffoon 9y ago
    Last I checked, even ramen and Mtn. Dew can't be purchased with equity.
    - solotronics 9y ago
      I smell a startup opportunity.
- untog 9y ago
  Don't worry, the job can be remote! So the company wouldn't provide anything at all. I'd be first in line, but: "Please do not apply if you know you do not have the skill necessary build something extraordinary." So I guess I'm out. Shucks.
- jackhack 9y ago
  I've seen this too many times before. They want the developer to show up with a laptop, all tools, documentation, licenses, etc. and work for peanuts. All for the "opportunity" to learn under a "seasoned professional" and/or "build your portfolio" or some other nonsense. There was even a website that used to list these absurd offers. It was "fthatjob.com" or something similar. (sadly, it's gone). Unfortunately a steady stream of newbies will fall for this sort of trap. The rest of us should follow the wisdom of Mike Monteiro: https://theamericangenius.com/entrepreneur/the-entrepreneurs-guide-to-contracts-fck-you-pay-me/ https://theamericangenius.com/entrepreneur/the-entrepreneurs... It's a bit rude, but there is a LOT of sage advice therein.
beisner 9y ago
I agree this is pretty ridiculous. It does make me wonder though, what is the appropriate way to bring people on when you can’t pay them? I.e. you have no money and are just starting out (1-2ppl), and need someone to help? Do you just make them a co-founder? Or can you structure an employment agreement that grants a substantial percent of equity with a guaranteed salary starting X months after start? I ask because I’m wondering how companies that bootstrap without investment grow headcount. Edit: I guess I should have been less ambiguous, I wasn't really talking about an employee/employer situation, I agree all work should be paid for. Now that I think about it more, I guess the scenario I was describing was 1-2 people working on a project, and then getting someone else in their immediate circle (i.e. friend, connection, etc) involved. I guess this person would then be called a co-founder, since they are assuming similar risk as the 1-2 original people. My question was more, how have others structured equity for those people, (co-founders?) who join significantly after inception?
- swsieber 9y ago
  Companies that bootstrap without investment wait as long as possible to hire/grow headcount. Yeah, it might take a bit longer to reach higher revenues.
  - thomascgalvin 9y ago
    But what about companies that bootstrap without any technical skills, business acumen, marketable ideas, or morals?
    - albertgoeswoof 9y ago
      Oh, they just ask reach out to their "network" for a few hundred thousand
- kabouseng 9y ago
  "with a guaranteed salary starting X months after start" If you don't have operating capital now, what guarantees can you give that you will have x months later?
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
pc86 9y ago
Only worth it if it fully vests after, say... immediately? So that I can quit with my 2-5% (come on, it'll be 2%) and go get a real job.
vijayr 9y ago
There was a report sometime ago about companies in London (probably happening elsewhere too) asking interns to pay them to get an internship (if I remember correctly, it was in fashion and journalism). And many people did so, because it helps them get a foot in the door. I guess with more and more automation, problems like these are only going to get worse.
- chaostheory 9y ago
  Weiden Kennedy actually did that with http://www.wk.com/campaign/wk_ http://www.wk.com/campaign/wk_ I’m not sure it’s totally a bad thing. You get to work for a renowned agency. The problem is that it excludes skilled people who don’t already have money
  - dsr_ 9y ago
    Among authors, Yog's Law is widely known. I assure you it applies to every field: “Money flows toward the writer.” or, to generalize: Money flows towards the people doing the work. Anything which involves the other direction is a scam of some kind. If Weiden Kennedy thinks that they are so awesome that people should pay them to learn from them, the legitimate thing to do is to open a school, not pretend that they are employees.
    - chaostheory 9y ago
      To be clear, I'm just the messenger - a neutral one. I'm not strongly espousing one view over another. As for the W+K project, they did sell it as a school or school like experience that gives you a real W+K project, instead of an internship where the interns pay. One guy who got into YC was part of it: https://www.theymadethat.com/people/j81421/rudy-adler https://www.theymadethat.com/people/j81421/rudy-adler
    - ralmidani 9y ago
      My wife is studying nutrition. To become a registered dietitian and be able to work in many (if not most) US states, you have to do a months-long internship at a hospital or similar facility. __you__ pay for the privilege. And when you finish, dietitian salaries are __pitiful__ compared to less rigorous health professions which don't require a Bachelors degree.
astura 9y ago
>you will also be working alongside one of the leading React developers in the world who will assist you every step of the way. From the Reddit thread this is a guy who is still in college and brags about his 3 month internship at Amazon. Someone's gotta knock him down a peg, or two, or five. Fuck it, just throw him all the way down the stairs, he really needs it.
- TACIXAT 9y ago
  Hey, I know it's hyperbolic, but let's not call for violence against people.
  - ralmidani 9y ago
    "Throw him all the way down the stairs" is keeping with the "take him down a few pegs" metaphor. It's obvious it was not meant literally.
    - astura 9y ago
      Yes, thank you. I guess I was using the idiom wrong, it's apparently "take (one) down a peg" but I've always said "knock (one) down a peg," and when I say it I always pictured, in my head, a bunch of pegs lined up like stairs and someone being knocked "down" to a physically lower peg. it's actually one of the few idioms that prompts me have a mental image of it in my head. I wonder what the actual origin of the idiom is. "Violent" idioms are not uncommon: "My wife is going to kill me when I get home." "This company is raking me over the coals." "That's it, the gloves are off." "She's out for blood."
      - jaymzcampbell 9y ago
        I'm veering off topic now but I find the English StackExchange an absolute timesink of interesting triviality for this stuff: https://english.stackexchange.com/a/29351 https://english.stackexchange.com/a/29351. (Since I can't reply to the inner comment: - the phrase itself seems to have no solid canonical first reference but a few sources online say it's to do with ships and the navy, eg http://jimcofer.com/personal/2011/04/13/what-the-navy-gave-english/ http://jimcofer.com/personal/2011/04/13/what-the-navy-gave-e..., I guess pick your favourite and run with it! :)
dcosson 9y ago
> all the interns that have to put up with this sort of crap There are clearly some (such as at the company in the post) but in my experience software internships have gotten really good in the past years since so many companies are competing for talent. Most places that I’ve seen in SF, interns are paid a pro-rated fulltime salary, but since they’re only working for 3 months they have few day to day operational responsinsibilities and get to spend all their time on interesting projects of their choosing (that are also also still useful to the company). It’s pretty much the best job I can think of, I wouldn’t feel too bad for them.
- jaymzcampbell 9y ago
  Yes, in that case, I totally agree - and I do believe that I'm lucky to be in this field when I compare working days to my peers that are in all sorts of industries. By "all the interns that..." I was thinking of those that don't have the confidence or feel they have to do this. In London I have seen places I worked at hire an intern purely as a "cheap employee" with little obligation. When I hear of people having to do internships to get an entry level job it really annoys me in all but a few cases. There was a time people were brought on and trained on the job. Companies want it both ways now - they mandate having a CS degree or similar and then in the same breath tell people they expect months of low or unpaid work "so they can be useful". No wonder millennials are fed up with business culture. I don't blame them. This is of course a particular terrible example of a "company" but I think good, strong internships as you describe are rare - from what I've seen in the UK at least.
deep_concern 9y ago
I suggest applying, then laugh in their face and scold them once you get an offer.
- kbenson 9y ago
  Getting an offer requires you write a good portion of their needed code for them and hand it over before you even do a phone screening call, so they might be perfectly fine for you to laugh all you want.
mintplant 9y ago
> Bee is a photo sharing site that connects you with your favorite brands.You post photos to Bee and they're sent directly to the people who matter. You get nationwide exposure and photo credit as your shot is featured on everything from billboards to social media. Their business model is "paying" people for stock photos with exposure. I'm not surprised they're averse to fairly compensating people who do work for them.
- nsxwolf 9y ago
  Which makes it extra hilarious that the interview, not even the internship, consists of “write the entire technology core of our business for us”.
- coverband 9y ago
  Yep, great business model: collect free photos from users, sell them to companies to use on their social media for $199-$799.
- Pica_soO 9y ago
  We dont use the W-word anymore, this is not a steel mill- we are creating the future here. Our relationship to the people in this office is better described as correlating hobbys. So if you want to ch-oin, you are welcome!
CM30 9y ago
That AngelList link reminded me of just how many of these roles seem to be on the site. I mean, it's filled to the brim with people and 'opportunities' you'd see mocked on that 'For Exposure' Twitter account. And it gets worse if you're not looking for software development jobs. At least for the former, there are some paying extremely high wages to make up for the low end ones expecting Silicon Valley quality engineers to work for free. In non tech jobs... forget it. Anything that doesn't have 'manager' in the title (and many that do) is probably not going to offer enough to live on in the location its based in. The site has its uses, and it's not bad in theory, but I suspect it needs more moderation to strip out stuff like this.

holtalanm 9y ago

_holy shit_ Yeah, this company is the absolute worst. I would also bet that the engineer would get fired before ever being able to cash out on that equity.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

onychomys 9y ago

I wonder what they expect the dev to eat while he's working for them. Do they have free cookies every day in the office? The dev had better hope so! Oh, or there's calories in regular Coke, so as long as the guy doesn't prefer diet, maybe he can subsist on that!

holtalanm 9y ago
Well, when I was in college I think I survived on nothing but Mountain Dew and ramen. So....maybe that is what they expect?
- actsasbuffoon 9y ago
  Last I checked, even ramen and Mtn. Dew can't be purchased with equity.
  - solotronics 9y ago
    I smell a startup opportunity.
untog 9y ago
Don't worry, the job can be remote! So the company wouldn't provide anything at all. I'd be first in line, but: "Please do not apply if you know you do not have the skill necessary build something extraordinary." So I guess I'm out. Shucks.
jackhack 9y ago
I've seen this too many times before. They want the developer to show up with a laptop, all tools, documentation, licenses, etc. and work for peanuts. All for the "opportunity" to learn under a "seasoned professional" and/or "build your portfolio" or some other nonsense. There was even a website that used to list these absurd offers. It was "fthatjob.com" or something similar. (sadly, it's gone). Unfortunately a steady stream of newbies will fall for this sort of trap. The rest of us should follow the wisdom of Mike Monteiro: https://theamericangenius.com/entrepreneur/the-entrepreneurs-guide-to-contracts-fck-you-pay-me/ https://theamericangenius.com/entrepreneur/the-entrepreneurs... It's a bit rude, but there is a LOT of sage advice therein.

beisner 9y ago

I agree this is pretty ridiculous. It does make me wonder though, what is the appropriate way to bring people on when you can’t pay them? I.e. you have no money and are just starting out (1-2ppl), and need someone to help? Do you just make them a co-founder? Or can you structure an employment agreement that grants a substantial percent of equity with a guaranteed salary starting X months after start? I ask because I’m wondering how companies that bootstrap without investment grow headcount. Edit: I guess I should have been less ambiguous, I wasn't really talking about an employee/employer situation, I agree all work should be paid for. Now that I think about it more, I guess the scenario I was describing was 1-2 people working on a project, and then getting someone else in their immediate circle (i.e. friend, connection, etc) involved. I guess this person would then be called a co-founder, since they are assuming similar risk as the 1-2 original people. My question was more, how have others structured equity for those people, (co-founders?) who join significantly after inception?

swsieber 9y ago
Companies that bootstrap without investment wait as long as possible to hire/grow headcount. Yeah, it might take a bit longer to reach higher revenues.
- thomascgalvin 9y ago
  But what about companies that bootstrap without any technical skills, business acumen, marketable ideas, or morals?
  - albertgoeswoof 9y ago
    Oh, they just ask reach out to their "network" for a few hundred thousand
kabouseng 9y ago
"with a guaranteed salary starting X months after start" If you don't have operating capital now, what guarantees can you give that you will have x months later?

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

pc86 9y ago

Only worth it if it fully vests after, say... immediately? So that I can quit with my 2-5% (come on, it'll be 2%) and go get a real job.

vijayr 9y ago

There was a report sometime ago about companies in London (probably happening elsewhere too) asking interns to pay them to get an internship (if I remember correctly, it was in fashion and journalism). And many people did so, because it helps them get a foot in the door. I guess with more and more automation, problems like these are only going to get worse.

chaostheory 9y ago
Weiden Kennedy actually did that with http://www.wk.com/campaign/wk_ http://www.wk.com/campaign/wk_ I’m not sure it’s totally a bad thing. You get to work for a renowned agency. The problem is that it excludes skilled people who don’t already have money
- dsr_ 9y ago
  Among authors, Yog's Law is widely known. I assure you it applies to every field: “Money flows toward the writer.” or, to generalize: Money flows towards the people doing the work. Anything which involves the other direction is a scam of some kind. If Weiden Kennedy thinks that they are so awesome that people should pay them to learn from them, the legitimate thing to do is to open a school, not pretend that they are employees.
  - chaostheory 9y ago
    To be clear, I'm just the messenger - a neutral one. I'm not strongly espousing one view over another. As for the W+K project, they did sell it as a school or school like experience that gives you a real W+K project, instead of an internship where the interns pay. One guy who got into YC was part of it: https://www.theymadethat.com/people/j81421/rudy-adler https://www.theymadethat.com/people/j81421/rudy-adler
  - ralmidani 9y ago
    My wife is studying nutrition. To become a registered dietitian and be able to work in many (if not most) US states, you have to do a months-long internship at a hospital or similar facility. __you__ pay for the privilege. And when you finish, dietitian salaries are __pitiful__ compared to less rigorous health professions which don't require a Bachelors degree.

astura 9y ago

>you will also be working alongside one of the leading React developers in the world who will assist you every step of the way. From the Reddit thread this is a guy who is still in college and brags about his 3 month internship at Amazon. Someone's gotta knock him down a peg, or two, or five. Fuck it, just throw him all the way down the stairs, he really needs it.

TACIXAT 9y ago
Hey, I know it's hyperbolic, but let's not call for violence against people.
- ralmidani 9y ago
  "Throw him all the way down the stairs" is keeping with the "take him down a few pegs" metaphor. It's obvious it was not meant literally.
  - astura 9y ago
    Yes, thank you. I guess I was using the idiom wrong, it's apparently "take (one) down a peg" but I've always said "knock (one) down a peg," and when I say it I always pictured, in my head, a bunch of pegs lined up like stairs and someone being knocked "down" to a physically lower peg. it's actually one of the few idioms that prompts me have a mental image of it in my head. I wonder what the actual origin of the idiom is. "Violent" idioms are not uncommon: "My wife is going to kill me when I get home." "This company is raking me over the coals." "That's it, the gloves are off." "She's out for blood."
    - jaymzcampbell 9y ago
      I'm veering off topic now but I find the English StackExchange an absolute timesink of interesting triviality for this stuff: https://english.stackexchange.com/a/29351 https://english.stackexchange.com/a/29351. (Since I can't reply to the inner comment: - the phrase itself seems to have no solid canonical first reference but a few sources online say it's to do with ships and the navy, eg http://jimcofer.com/personal/2011/04/13/what-the-navy-gave-english/ http://jimcofer.com/personal/2011/04/13/what-the-navy-gave-e..., I guess pick your favourite and run with it! :)

dcosson 9y ago

> all the interns that have to put up with this sort of crap There are clearly some (such as at the company in the post) but in my experience software internships have gotten really good in the past years since so many companies are competing for talent. Most places that I’ve seen in SF, interns are paid a pro-rated fulltime salary, but since they’re only working for 3 months they have few day to day operational responsinsibilities and get to spend all their time on interesting projects of their choosing (that are also also still useful to the company). It’s pretty much the best job I can think of, I wouldn’t feel too bad for them.

jaymzcampbell 9y ago
Yes, in that case, I totally agree - and I do believe that I'm lucky to be in this field when I compare working days to my peers that are in all sorts of industries. By "all the interns that..." I was thinking of those that don't have the confidence or feel they have to do this. In London I have seen places I worked at hire an intern purely as a "cheap employee" with little obligation. When I hear of people having to do internships to get an entry level job it really annoys me in all but a few cases. There was a time people were brought on and trained on the job. Companies want it both ways now - they mandate having a CS degree or similar and then in the same breath tell people they expect months of low or unpaid work "so they can be useful". No wonder millennials are fed up with business culture. I don't blame them. This is of course a particular terrible example of a "company" but I think good, strong internships as you describe are rare - from what I've seen in the UK at least.

deep_concern 9y ago

I suggest applying, then laugh in their face and scold them once you get an offer.

kbenson 9y ago
Getting an offer requires you write a good portion of their needed code for them and hand it over before you even do a phone screening call, so they might be perfectly fine for you to laugh all you want.

mintplant 9y ago

> Bee is a photo sharing site that connects you with your favorite brands.You post photos to Bee and they're sent directly to the people who matter. You get nationwide exposure and photo credit as your shot is featured on everything from billboards to social media. Their business model is "paying" people for stock photos with exposure. I'm not surprised they're averse to fairly compensating people who do work for them.

nsxwolf 9y ago
Which makes it extra hilarious that the interview, not even the internship, consists of “write the entire technology core of our business for us”.
coverband 9y ago
Yep, great business model: collect free photos from users, sell them to companies to use on their social media for $199-$799.
Pica_soO 9y ago
We dont use the W-word anymore, this is not a steel mill- we are creating the future here. Our relationship to the people in this office is better described as correlating hobbys. So if you want to ch-oin, you are welcome!

CM30 9y ago

That AngelList link reminded me of just how many of these roles seem to be on the site. I mean, it's filled to the brim with people and 'opportunities' you'd see mocked on that 'For Exposure' Twitter account. And it gets worse if you're not looking for software development jobs. At least for the former, there are some paying extremely high wages to make up for the low end ones expecting Silicon Valley quality engineers to work for free. In non tech jobs... forget it. Anything that doesn't have 'manager' in the title (and many that do) is probably not going to offer enough to live on in the location its based in. The site has its uses, and it's not bad in theory, but I suspect it needs more moderation to strip out stuff like this.