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I think there is another German who predates Teutoborg by about 50 years, and who really captivated me when I found out about him - Ariovistus. He was a leader

by dreen 9y ago

I think there is another German who predates Teutoborg by about 50 years, and who really captivated me when I found out about him - Ariovistus. He was a leader of the Suebii (mentioned in TFA), who extended German rule into Gaul around the same time as Julius Caesar launched his invasion. The two men met right before an ultimate battle between the Suebii and Rome. Ariovistus's message was simple: while they are both invading Gaul, Caesar is doing so under the pretence of protecting states that are friendly to Rome, but ultimately he wants all of the Gaul to be Roman anyway, because the Romans see all of Gaul and Germany as "barbarians". So basically, he called out the Romans on what he rightfully recognised to be hypocrisy based in a false feeling of cultural superiority. Caesar beat Ariovistus the day after and proceeded to put all of Gaul under the Roman rule. And we know all this from Caesar himself: http://classics.mit.edu/Caesar/gallic.1.1.html http://classics.mit.edu/Caesar/gallic.1.1.html

wazoox 9y ago
It's quite probable that Caesar exaggerated the German menace to justify the invasion of Gaul. Interestingly, it's never very clear in De Bello Gallico what's the difference between Germans and Celts, but that the Celts can be civilized, and the Germans can not.
- ocschwar 9y ago
  Caesar mixing his Celts and Germans also leads us to wonder if England really was Germanized in the 5th century with the Angle invasion, or if the east of the island was already Germanic when Caesar first visited.
  - megaman22 9y ago
    Caesar's "Germans" were almost certainly Celtic/Gallic - "Celtic" cultures and tribes stretched from Iberia in the west to Galatia (Anatolia) in the east. I'm sketchier on where the Angles/Saxons/Jutes came from before they emerged into the historical record in modern-day northwestern Germany, Denmark and the Netherlands. Whether they were a reconfiguration of the tribes that had been there since time immemorial, or were groups previously to the east, displaced westward as a ripple effect of the great migrations out of central Asia.
    - ocschwar 9y ago
      The bigger question is whether the Belgae, who were in southeastern Britain when Caesar arrived, were Celtic or German.
    - pm90 9y ago
      I can't find the sources right now, but I think linguistic studies have confirmed that the celts and germans could not have come from the same origin. My impression has always been that the celts were the original inhabitants of western Europe and the British Isles and the Germanic/Nordic tribes slowly conquered and assimilated them into their culture. I am not a historian of course. Would love to hear counterpoints; I'm interested in historical facts not propaganda :) .
      - arethuza 9y ago
        Speaking of "original inhabitants" of the British Isles there was a fascinating Time Team special that mentioned that there were 7 waves of human occupation of Britain - with each of the previous six waves completely dying out.
eighthnate 9y ago
> And we know all this from Caesar himself: Caesar is known to exaggerate and make things up to make his story interesting. Caesar is one of the world's great self-promoters and self-propagandists. He knew the power of propaganda and historical legacy. So I'd take what he wrote with a grain of salt.
- dreen 9y ago
  Yeah, I am aware his diaries are not a reliable source, however (I should have said) his meeting meeting with Ariovistus is confirmed by other sources, check wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariovistus#Confrontation_with_Caesar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariovistus#Confrontation_with_...
Redoubts 9y ago
There's an amazing podcast by Dan Carlin on this particular part of history, too. http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-60-the-celtic-holocaust/ http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-60-the-cel...
elcapitan 9y ago
We also know this famous part from Caesar, describing moose without joints who lean against trees to sleep at night: There are also [animals], which are called moose. The shape of these, and the varied color of their skins, is much like roes, but in size they surpass them a little and are destitute of horns, and have legs without joints and ligatures; nor do they lie down for the purpose of rest, nor, if they have been thrown down by any accident, can they raise or lift themselves up. Trees serve as beds to them; they lean themselves against them, and thus reclining only slightly, they take their rest; when the huntsmen have discovered from the footsteps of these animals whither they are accustomed to betake themselves, they either undermine all the trees at the roots, or cut into them so far that the upper part of the trees may appear to be left standing. When they have leant upon them, according to their habit, they knock down by their weight the unsupported trees, and fall down themselves along with them.
- dreen 9y ago
  Thank you, thats brilliant

by dreen 9y ago

wazoox 9y ago

It's quite probable that Caesar exaggerated the German menace to justify the invasion of Gaul. Interestingly, it's never very clear in De Bello Gallico what's the difference between Germans and Celts, but that the Celts can be civilized, and the Germans can not.

ocschwar 9y ago
Caesar mixing his Celts and Germans also leads us to wonder if England really was Germanized in the 5th century with the Angle invasion, or if the east of the island was already Germanic when Caesar first visited.
- megaman22 9y ago
  Caesar's "Germans" were almost certainly Celtic/Gallic - "Celtic" cultures and tribes stretched from Iberia in the west to Galatia (Anatolia) in the east. I'm sketchier on where the Angles/Saxons/Jutes came from before they emerged into the historical record in modern-day northwestern Germany, Denmark and the Netherlands. Whether they were a reconfiguration of the tribes that had been there since time immemorial, or were groups previously to the east, displaced westward as a ripple effect of the great migrations out of central Asia.
  - ocschwar 9y ago
    The bigger question is whether the Belgae, who were in southeastern Britain when Caesar arrived, were Celtic or German.
  - pm90 9y ago
    I can't find the sources right now, but I think linguistic studies have confirmed that the celts and germans could not have come from the same origin. My impression has always been that the celts were the original inhabitants of western Europe and the British Isles and the Germanic/Nordic tribes slowly conquered and assimilated them into their culture. I am not a historian of course. Would love to hear counterpoints; I'm interested in historical facts not propaganda :) .
    - arethuza 9y ago
      Speaking of "original inhabitants" of the British Isles there was a fascinating Time Team special that mentioned that there were 7 waves of human occupation of Britain - with each of the previous six waves completely dying out.

eighthnate 9y ago

> And we know all this from Caesar himself: Caesar is known to exaggerate and make things up to make his story interesting. Caesar is one of the world's great self-promoters and self-propagandists. He knew the power of propaganda and historical legacy. So I'd take what he wrote with a grain of salt.

dreen 9y ago
Yeah, I am aware his diaries are not a reliable source, however (I should have said) his meeting meeting with Ariovistus is confirmed by other sources, check wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariovistus#Confrontation_with_Caesar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariovistus#Confrontation_with_...

Redoubts 9y ago

There's an amazing podcast by Dan Carlin on this particular part of history, too. http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-60-the-celtic-holocaust/ http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-60-the-cel...

elcapitan 9y ago

We also know this famous part from Caesar, describing moose without joints who lean against trees to sleep at night: There are also [animals], which are called moose. The shape of these, and the varied color of their skins, is much like roes, but in size they surpass them a little and are destitute of horns, and have legs without joints and ligatures; nor do they lie down for the purpose of rest, nor, if they have been thrown down by any accident, can they raise or lift themselves up. Trees serve as beds to them; they lean themselves against them, and thus reclining only slightly, they take their rest; when the huntsmen have discovered from the footsteps of these animals whither they are accustomed to betake themselves, they either undermine all the trees at the roots, or cut into them so far that the upper part of the trees may appear to be left standing. When they have leant upon them, according to their habit, they knock down by their weight the unsupported trees, and fall down themselves along with them.

dreen 9y ago
Thank you, thats brilliant