4 ms·

There is an incredible subculture for denim, distressing jeans the old fashioned way, no skeuomorphism here. The pre-WW2 production methods produced a higher qu

There is an incredible subculture for denim, distressing jeans the old fashioned way, no skeuomorphism here. The pre-WW2 production methods produced a higher quality product (surprise?) but the small looms couldn't produce it fast enough or cheap enough and were sent overseas. The Japanese have carried on producing proper American work wear, while American brands largely produce a simulacrum of American work wear. Sad fact, Cone Mills is shutting down after more than a century, last of its kind in the US.

grogenaut 9y ago
Can you give me some proof, not opinion or social sales speak, that the japanese stuff is "better"? Also how is it comparable to actual work wear sold in the US, like carhart/etc or safety gear?
- wodenokoto 9y ago
  Plenty of Japanese stuff isn't better. Uniqlo sells a variety of jeans. While cheap and good for the price, it isn't exactly high quality. Is carhart really work wear? All the cool kids wore carhart in junior high 15 years ago where I lived.
  - Bartweiss 9y ago
    > Is carhart really work wear? Yes. It made the to 'cool' on the back of the rugged reputation, but Carhartt jackets are still a common sight on construction sites, out hunting, and so on. The jackets at least really are that good - waterproof and extremely sturdy. It's sort of the same role Red Wing boots have slipped into - they count as cool now, but they're still totally viable as heavy workwear.
    - x0x0 9y ago
      I'd guess they're in a similar position to North Face, who realized there's a lot more people that want to look fashionable than people who need -50F clothing, or even people who actually ski in that temperature range instead of hiding at the bar...
      - Bartweiss 9y ago
        Pretty much, yeah. They still make good gear, but so does North Face. There's an interesting split between outdoor companies that have made this switch (e.g. North Face) and ones that really haven't (e.g. Black Diamond). It seems like some companies have specialized in gear that no one wears for style, and the rest have hybridized.
        grogenaut 9y ago
        Well there's also the like of eddie bauer which went from totally hunting/outdoor casual wear to 100% style wear.
  - Johnny555 9y ago
    Doesn't Uniqlo manufacture their products in the same Chinese (and Bangladesh) factories as American brands?
- s4vi0r 9y ago
  Note that he said higher quality, and not better. There is a bit of a difference, as better could mean different things to different people. You can find plenty of things about the (raw) denim subculture as far as Japan goes, this is probably a decent intro article: https://www.heddels.com/2013/06/what-makes-japanese-denim-so-special/ https://www.heddels.com/2013/06/what-makes-japanese-denim-so... Note that none of these brands are really literal workwear. They're not competing at all with carhartt (Most of these pairs will run you $300 at least eg.), and almost everybody who buys a pair is going to buy them for the experience/authenticity and aesthetic (Americana)
  - PeachPlum 9y ago
    Quality is qualitative not quantitative.
Animats 9y ago
An incredible amount of effort goes into making worn and distressed denim. Here's the web site of a jeans pre-washing plant.[1] Services offered include "Crinkle Effects, Grinding/Damaging, Scrunch/ Crumple, Hand Scraping, Stone Wash, Acid Wash, Enzyme Wash, Sand Blasting Wash". [1] http://www.mahmudgroup-bd.com/mahmud-washing-plant-limited http://www.mahmudgroup-bd.com/mahmud-washing-plant-limited
dagw 9y ago
I'm sure there are Japanese brands that produce great jeans. However I bough a few pairs of random Made In Japan jeans when I was in Tokyo a few years ago and they haven't held up any better (or worse) than any other random pair of halfway decent jeans I've bought from American or European brands.
rosbrith 9y ago
William Gibson's Zero History goes into a bit of detail on this, including a mission to track down a supposedly secret brand of jeans.
- Bartweiss 9y ago
  And the whole Buzz Ricksons bomber jacket bit from Pattern Recognition goes down the same road. The makers of the Rickson's have exaggerated this, but only very slightly, and done a hundred other things, tiny things, as well, so that their product has become, in some very Japanese way, the result of an act of worship. It is an imitation more real somehow than that which it emulates. Something definitely caught Gibson's eye about Japan and imitative fashion, though I don't have the first-hand experience to see how accurate his take is. It definitely describes a trait I've seen in other replicas and exports, though; Japanese whiskey is an obvious example.
  - rosbrith 9y ago
    Yes, I'd forgotten about the Buzz Rickson! I'm not inclined in any way to follow fashion but I was really taken with Gibson's attention to detail in these books. He has a way of imparting curiosity about the seemingly mundane and I have started to pay attention to similar traits in clothing.
    - Bartweiss 9y ago
      For my favorite bit of Gibson covering the mundane: https://www.gwern.net/docs/japanese/2002-gibson https://www.gwern.net/docs/japanese/2002-gibson That's a whole article about the art of mud-ball shining, and it's fascinating. (It's also an intriguing taste of how Gibson got started on his last decade of topics. Otaku, crafting perfectionism, "the absolute narrowing of personal bandwidth", and so on.)
  - gwern 9y ago
    The coolest part about that I learned recently while looking into bomber jackets: it turns out life now imitates art, as Buzz Rickson got so many queries they asked Gibson for permission to make the black bomber jacket he describes in the novel (Gibson had misremembered the color). So a few years later, you could go and buy a William Gibson Rickson bomber jacket: https://williamgibsonblog.blogspot.com/2005/12/ https://williamgibsonblog.blogspot.com/2005/12/ Believe they're still making them. (Costs something like $600 depending on how savvy you shop and whether you're willing to go used.)
PoachedSausage 9y ago
I don't go for distressed, but I do actually prefer the modern type fabrics that have some elastane woven in, it is much more comfortable than old fashioned denim.

grogenaut 9y ago

Can you give me some proof, not opinion or social sales speak, that the japanese stuff is "better"? Also how is it comparable to actual work wear sold in the US, like carhart/etc or safety gear?

wodenokoto 9y ago
Plenty of Japanese stuff isn't better. Uniqlo sells a variety of jeans. While cheap and good for the price, it isn't exactly high quality. Is carhart really work wear? All the cool kids wore carhart in junior high 15 years ago where I lived.
- Bartweiss 9y ago
  > Is carhart really work wear? Yes. It made the to 'cool' on the back of the rugged reputation, but Carhartt jackets are still a common sight on construction sites, out hunting, and so on. The jackets at least really are that good - waterproof and extremely sturdy. It's sort of the same role Red Wing boots have slipped into - they count as cool now, but they're still totally viable as heavy workwear.
  - x0x0 9y ago
    I'd guess they're in a similar position to North Face, who realized there's a lot more people that want to look fashionable than people who need -50F clothing, or even people who actually ski in that temperature range instead of hiding at the bar...
    - Bartweiss 9y ago
      Pretty much, yeah. They still make good gear, but so does North Face. There's an interesting split between outdoor companies that have made this switch (e.g. North Face) and ones that really haven't (e.g. Black Diamond). It seems like some companies have specialized in gear that no one wears for style, and the rest have hybridized.
      - grogenaut 9y ago
        Well there's also the like of eddie bauer which went from totally hunting/outdoor casual wear to 100% style wear.
- Johnny555 9y ago
  Doesn't Uniqlo manufacture their products in the same Chinese (and Bangladesh) factories as American brands?
s4vi0r 9y ago
Note that he said higher quality, and not better. There is a bit of a difference, as better could mean different things to different people. You can find plenty of things about the (raw) denim subculture as far as Japan goes, this is probably a decent intro article: https://www.heddels.com/2013/06/what-makes-japanese-denim-so-special/ https://www.heddels.com/2013/06/what-makes-japanese-denim-so... Note that none of these brands are really literal workwear. They're not competing at all with carhartt (Most of these pairs will run you $300 at least eg.), and almost everybody who buys a pair is going to buy them for the experience/authenticity and aesthetic (Americana)
- PeachPlum 9y ago
  Quality is qualitative not quantitative.

Animats 9y ago

An incredible amount of effort goes into making worn and distressed denim. Here's the web site of a jeans pre-washing plant.[1] Services offered include "Crinkle Effects, Grinding/Damaging, Scrunch/ Crumple, Hand Scraping, Stone Wash, Acid Wash, Enzyme Wash, Sand Blasting Wash". [1] http://www.mahmudgroup-bd.com/mahmud-washing-plant-limited http://www.mahmudgroup-bd.com/mahmud-washing-plant-limited

dagw 9y ago

I'm sure there are Japanese brands that produce great jeans. However I bough a few pairs of random Made In Japan jeans when I was in Tokyo a few years ago and they haven't held up any better (or worse) than any other random pair of halfway decent jeans I've bought from American or European brands.

rosbrith 9y ago

William Gibson's Zero History goes into a bit of detail on this, including a mission to track down a supposedly secret brand of jeans.

Bartweiss 9y ago
And the whole Buzz Ricksons bomber jacket bit from Pattern Recognition goes down the same road. The makers of the Rickson's have exaggerated this, but only very slightly, and done a hundred other things, tiny things, as well, so that their product has become, in some very Japanese way, the result of an act of worship. It is an imitation more real somehow than that which it emulates. Something definitely caught Gibson's eye about Japan and imitative fashion, though I don't have the first-hand experience to see how accurate his take is. It definitely describes a trait I've seen in other replicas and exports, though; Japanese whiskey is an obvious example.
- rosbrith 9y ago
  Yes, I'd forgotten about the Buzz Rickson! I'm not inclined in any way to follow fashion but I was really taken with Gibson's attention to detail in these books. He has a way of imparting curiosity about the seemingly mundane and I have started to pay attention to similar traits in clothing.
  - Bartweiss 9y ago
    For my favorite bit of Gibson covering the mundane: https://www.gwern.net/docs/japanese/2002-gibson https://www.gwern.net/docs/japanese/2002-gibson That's a whole article about the art of mud-ball shining, and it's fascinating. (It's also an intriguing taste of how Gibson got started on his last decade of topics. Otaku, crafting perfectionism, "the absolute narrowing of personal bandwidth", and so on.)
- gwern 9y ago
  The coolest part about that I learned recently while looking into bomber jackets: it turns out life now imitates art, as Buzz Rickson got so many queries they asked Gibson for permission to make the black bomber jacket he describes in the novel (Gibson had misremembered the color). So a few years later, you could go and buy a William Gibson Rickson bomber jacket: https://williamgibsonblog.blogspot.com/2005/12/ https://williamgibsonblog.blogspot.com/2005/12/ Believe they're still making them. (Costs something like $600 depending on how savvy you shop and whether you're willing to go used.)

PoachedSausage 9y ago

I don't go for distressed, but I do actually prefer the modern type fabrics that have some elastane woven in, it is much more comfortable than old fashioned denim.