5 ms·

> you could be improving people's lives I'd say games (and any art, for that matter) can and do improve lives.

ivm 9y ago
Art usually is not designed as a Skinner box that keeps you awake until 5am and motivates you to skip school, so you can sit at a gaming café all day. While I found some great friends during the "gaming years", most of the time games were ruining my life.
- CamperBob2 9y ago
  #notallgames
- santaclaus 9y ago
  Eh? Yea there are crap games out there. There is also crap music. And crap health IT software.
  - ivm 9y ago
    The best games are also the most addictive. At least many single player titles end sooner or later but online ones are endless.
    - jacinda 9y ago
      Would it also follow that the "best" drugs are the most addictive?
    - wutbrodo 9y ago
      > The best games are also the most addictive Pft says who? Few of my favorite games can be described as addictive. You can't simultaneously make the argument that "addictiveness" in the sense you're using it is bad, and then quickly switch word senses to claim its a requirement for very good games.
      - ivm 9y ago
        I was developing and designing them, so by "good" I mean a good game design – it achieves its goal of generating endless fun. By "bad" I mean the impact of this game design on players' lives – the game is "too fun" for some of them.
        danbolt 9y ago
        I don't know if this is necessarily a consensus, but I think expecting a game to be endlessly fun to be good isn't really the sort of standard we should be holding games to. Other media such as writing or film doesn't promise to be endlessly entertaining, and ones that might are more like engaging in sport, which I would say isn't necessarily entertainment in the same way. I think there are a lot of players that see the Skinner Box-like mechanics popping up in mainstream works, and are increasingly turned off by it too.
        ivm 9y ago
        Replayability and long playing times are praised in reviews by both press and gamers. So Minecraft isn't considered an addictive game but it is.
    - khedoros1 9y ago
      I've found that for me, games without an end are discouraging, and most multiplayer games are just draining, like going to a party where I don't know anyone.
  - geezerjay 9y ago
    You're missing the fact that games are designed to be addictive through reward mechanisms that favour long hours of playtime. The ideal balance between positive and negative reinforcement schemes are responsible for motivating users to keep using. Some gamers pull all-nighters for multiple days in a row just to ensure that they keep receiving the stimulus they are seeking. The only difference between recreational drugs and games is that drugs act directly in the nervous system and are directly responsible for some physiological side effects.
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  I recommend not playing those shitty games. There's so many good ones out there.
  - ivm 9y ago
    You can't design a game that is not a set of Skinner boxes stacked on each other.
    - goatlover 9y ago
      ET on the Atari 2600?
    - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
      Okay. It sounds like, perhaps, you have something of an addictive personality and can't safely play video games at all? I'm sorry about that, and I'm glad you were able to get out of it, but that's not the universal experience.
      - ivm 9y ago
        It doesn't change the fact that game design is based on variable-ratio schedules of reinforcement. Many people have issues with them (see gambling).
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        cousin_it 9y ago
        Not sure I agree. Take a typical video game like Tetris or Super Mario Bros 2. There's no variable ratio reinforcement in sight, the reward is based on how well you play. Oh, but you could say the unpredictability (variable ratio) comes from the game throwing new stuff at you. That sounds reasonable, until you remember that books and movies also throw new stuff at you unpredictably as you keep turning the pages. Are books also Skinner boxes then? Is it even a useful concept if you stretch it this far? I think it's better to judge games on the axis of compulsion vs fun. Some games you play because they feel inherently fun, like Mario. Others you play because you can't stop pressing the lever and it doesn't feel much fun, like grind heavy games. Only the latter kind of games should be called Skinner boxes IMO. And nobody dreams of making games like that! So the whole subthread started by your remark seems a bit unnecessary, no?
- lowmagnet 9y ago
  The game I play the most is hexcells, an excellent puzzle game with no reinforcement to continue playing. Solving is the only reward.
- LyndsySimon 9y ago
  > While I found some great friends during the "gaming years", most of the time games were ruining my life. Yeah, I had my "gaming years", too - EverQuest in particular ate my life for a while to the extent that it threatened my mental health and my marriage. What I discovered though was that EQ was a symptom, not the cause of my dysfunction. Gaming is an escape; I was at a point in my life where all I wanted to do was escape from it, and EQ offered that in unlimited quantity.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

ivm 9y ago

Art usually is not designed as a Skinner box that keeps you awake until 5am and motivates you to skip school, so you can sit at a gaming café all day. While I found some great friends during the "gaming years", most of the time games were ruining my life.

CamperBob2 9y ago
#notallgames
santaclaus 9y ago
Eh? Yea there are crap games out there. There is also crap music. And crap health IT software.
- ivm 9y ago
  The best games are also the most addictive. At least many single player titles end sooner or later but online ones are endless.
  - jacinda 9y ago
    Would it also follow that the "best" drugs are the most addictive?
  - wutbrodo 9y ago
    > The best games are also the most addictive Pft says who? Few of my favorite games can be described as addictive. You can't simultaneously make the argument that "addictiveness" in the sense you're using it is bad, and then quickly switch word senses to claim its a requirement for very good games.
    - ivm 9y ago
      I was developing and designing them, so by "good" I mean a good game design – it achieves its goal of generating endless fun. By "bad" I mean the impact of this game design on players' lives – the game is "too fun" for some of them.
      - danbolt 9y ago
        I don't know if this is necessarily a consensus, but I think expecting a game to be endlessly fun to be good isn't really the sort of standard we should be holding games to. Other media such as writing or film doesn't promise to be endlessly entertaining, and ones that might are more like engaging in sport, which I would say isn't necessarily entertainment in the same way. I think there are a lot of players that see the Skinner Box-like mechanics popping up in mainstream works, and are increasingly turned off by it too.
        ivm 9y ago
        Replayability and long playing times are praised in reviews by both press and gamers. So Minecraft isn't considered an addictive game but it is.
  - khedoros1 9y ago
    I've found that for me, games without an end are discouraging, and most multiplayer games are just draining, like going to a party where I don't know anyone.
- geezerjay 9y ago
  You're missing the fact that games are designed to be addictive through reward mechanisms that favour long hours of playtime. The ideal balance between positive and negative reinforcement schemes are responsible for motivating users to keep using. Some gamers pull all-nighters for multiple days in a row just to ensure that they keep receiving the stimulus they are seeking. The only difference between recreational drugs and games is that drugs act directly in the nervous system and are directly responsible for some physiological side effects.
PhasmaFelis 9y ago
I recommend not playing those shitty games. There's so many good ones out there.
- ivm 9y ago
  You can't design a game that is not a set of Skinner boxes stacked on each other.
  - goatlover 9y ago
    ET on the Atari 2600?
  - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
    Okay. It sounds like, perhaps, you have something of an addictive personality and can't safely play video games at all? I'm sorry about that, and I'm glad you were able to get out of it, but that's not the universal experience.
    - ivm 9y ago
      It doesn't change the fact that game design is based on variable-ratio schedules of reinforcement. Many people have issues with them (see gambling).
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - cousin_it 9y ago
        Not sure I agree. Take a typical video game like Tetris or Super Mario Bros 2. There's no variable ratio reinforcement in sight, the reward is based on how well you play. Oh, but you could say the unpredictability (variable ratio) comes from the game throwing new stuff at you. That sounds reasonable, until you remember that books and movies also throw new stuff at you unpredictably as you keep turning the pages. Are books also Skinner boxes then? Is it even a useful concept if you stretch it this far? I think it's better to judge games on the axis of compulsion vs fun. Some games you play because they feel inherently fun, like Mario. Others you play because you can't stop pressing the lever and it doesn't feel much fun, like grind heavy games. Only the latter kind of games should be called Skinner boxes IMO. And nobody dreams of making games like that! So the whole subthread started by your remark seems a bit unnecessary, no?
lowmagnet 9y ago
The game I play the most is hexcells, an excellent puzzle game with no reinforcement to continue playing. Solving is the only reward.
LyndsySimon 9y ago
> While I found some great friends during the "gaming years", most of the time games were ruining my life. Yeah, I had my "gaming years", too - EverQuest in particular ate my life for a while to the extent that it threatened my mental health and my marriage. What I discovered though was that EQ was a symptom, not the cause of my dysfunction. Gaming is an escape; I was at a point in my life where all I wanted to do was escape from it, and EQ offered that in unlimited quantity.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]