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> I'm not sure who's hypothesizing that a modern country has to emulate the US. I'm just going to focus on one element due to space; one of the core pillars of

> I'm not sure who's hypothesizing that a modern country has to emulate the US. I'm just going to focus on one element due to space; one of the core pillars of American economic thinking is the idea of free markets. Through bilateral relationships or organizations like the IMF, etc., developing nations are given a road-map of how to modernize. It may not have to be a carbon copy of America (and that was not my point), but there is certainly an element of shaping developing countries to accept American ideals. However, have you ever noticed that no country has ever modernized through free markets, it always required a lot of protectionism. [1], [2] Free-markets is a big topic that the American government likes to complain about with regards to China. Ironically, Americans seem to think protectionism doesn't exist in America. "For example, from 2008 to 2016, the US implemented over 1,000 discriminatory trade policy measures, followed by India and Russia, with both implementing nearly 600 similar policies each. Trade-impeding measures have also increased at a much faster pace than measures to liberalize trade." [3], [4], [5]. A little hypocritical if you ask me. > Many modern countries these days don't adopt the American system, but are striving towards being modern, pluralist democracies with functioning social systems, good governance, and sane judicial systems. I'll assume you are contrasting with China, so I'll go point by point * Modern: Just to reiterate, my previous spiel was that China views modernization as independent to other society structures. Their experience has proven that to be the case. Without a doubt, cities like Shenzhen are modern. * Pluralist democracies with functioning social systems, good governance: Ultimately, the purpose of a democracy is to get the voices of citizens heard. Note that surveys show almost 90% of citizens in China are satisfied with their government while in the West, we are perpetually annoyed at them. Democracy is not a panacea for stability, success, etc. * Sane judicial systems: That depends how you view it. In America, look at the amount of people locked up for minor drug crimes. I call that insane. In China, the law is more flexible and based on circumstances. "Despite the tough laws, authorities have usually turned a blind eye to farmers growing their own low-THC varieties because they were an important source of income for some farmers." [6] It's also important to note westerners and easterners look at the concept of Law very differently. "Easterners and Westerners have fundamentally different understandings of the nature of contracts. In the West, a contract is unalterable; in the East a contract is continually renegotiable in the light of changed circumstances (Hampden-Turner & Trompenaars, 1993). This drastic difference of view has often resulted in conflict and bitterness between Eastern and Western negotiators." [7] [1] PDF Warning: http://ecdpm.org/wp-content/uploads/PMR-15-Politique-Developpement-Union-Europeenne-2008.pdf http://ecdpm.org/wp-content/uploads/PMR-15-Politique-Develop... (pg 38 and in French) [2] "...free market approaches have not proven to be 'very effective' in helping countries achieve this." http://www.oliverwyman.com/our-expertise/insights/2017/oct/evolving-risk-concerns-in-asia-pacific-2017.html http://www.oliverwyman.com/our-expertise/insights/2017/oct/e... [3] http://www.oliverwyman.com/our-expertise/insights/2017/oct/evolving-risk-concerns-in-asia-pacific-2017.html http://www.oliverwyman.com/our-expertise/insights/2017/oct/e... [4] Is China the Most Protectionist Country? No, Not By a Long Shot https://piie.com/blogs/china-economic-watch/china-most-protectionist-country-no-not-long-shot https://piie.com/blogs/china-economic-watch/china-most-prote... [5] http://www.eulerhermes.com/economic-research/blog/AllInfographicPictures/us-protectionist-measures-against-china-snippet-03oct17.pdf http://www.eulerhermes.com/economic-research/blog/AllInfogra... [6] http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2108347/green-gold-how-china-quietly-grew-cannabis-superpower http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2108347/green... [7] Richard Nisbett, Kaiping Peng, Incheol Choi, Ara Norenzayan - 2001 - Culture and Systems of Thought: Holistic vs. Analytic Cognition

dmichulke 9y ago
> However, have you ever noticed that no country has ever modernized through free markets, it always required a lot of protectionism. I think attributing this to protectionism is not really helpful. There are many protectionist states (or states with a "strong industrial policy") that don't develop at all economically. The examples of Europe before the early 20th Century and Far Asia in the late 20th century are certainly prominent but what about the other protectionist countries during that time or today? You can find the "most protectionist" (by some measure) countries here: http://www.heritage.org/index/explore http://www.heritage.org/index/explore (Click on "Trade Freedom" and then check the top vs bottom of the list) So we have examples and counter examples, not a strong case in favor of protectionism IMO.
- dis-sys 9y ago
  he still has a valid point - no country has ever modernized through free markets. he never argued that protectionism is the key to success. in fact, after WWII, not any country modernised itself after becoming a democracy. South Korea was in a military dictatorship, Singapore is run by a single family.
ant6n 9y ago
>> Many modern countries these days don't adopt the American system, but are striving towards being modern, pluralist democracies with functioning social systems, good governance, and sane judicial systems. > I'll assume you are contrasting with China, so I'll go point by point No, I'm saying the US is not a pluralist democracy with good governance etc. Obviously, China isn't either. If you're trying to find a modern democracy, look at some EU countries, to a lesser extend Canada, maybe New Zealand, Australia. I think those countries are becoming a guide on what to emulate, while the US is becoming more and more dysfunctional.

dmichulke 9y ago

> However, have you ever noticed that no country has ever modernized through free markets, it always required a lot of protectionism. I think attributing this to protectionism is not really helpful. There are many protectionist states (or states with a "strong industrial policy") that don't develop at all economically. The examples of Europe before the early 20th Century and Far Asia in the late 20th century are certainly prominent but what about the other protectionist countries during that time or today? You can find the "most protectionist" (by some measure) countries here: http://www.heritage.org/index/explore http://www.heritage.org/index/explore (Click on "Trade Freedom" and then check the top vs bottom of the list) So we have examples and counter examples, not a strong case in favor of protectionism IMO.

dis-sys 9y ago
he still has a valid point - no country has ever modernized through free markets. he never argued that protectionism is the key to success. in fact, after WWII, not any country modernised itself after becoming a democracy. South Korea was in a military dictatorship, Singapore is run by a single family.

ant6n 9y ago

>> Many modern countries these days don't adopt the American system, but are striving towards being modern, pluralist democracies with functioning social systems, good governance, and sane judicial systems. > I'll assume you are contrasting with China, so I'll go point by point No, I'm saying the US is not a pluralist democracy with good governance etc. Obviously, China isn't either. If you're trying to find a modern democracy, look at some EU countries, to a lesser extend Canada, maybe New Zealand, Australia. I think those countries are becoming a guide on what to emulate, while the US is becoming more and more dysfunctional.