6 ms·

I grew up in Livingston MT just a 20 min drive from the Crazies, I know these trails, and this is one if the saddest things I have ever read on HN. Now I live o

I grew up in Livingston MT just a 20 min drive from the Crazies, I know these trails, and this is one if the saddest things I have ever read on HN. Now I live on the West coast but I miss Montana all the time and visit whenever I can. To be honest, I really can't fathom how terrible things have gotten politically with the likes of the despicably corrupt Zinke and Gioforte. Personally, I watched everything change so fast, 7 years maybe, it started with the spec houses and the big money from the Yellowstone Club in Big Sky. My father was a carpenter on a ugly 12 million dollar monstrosity, complete with a heated fucking driveway, cut out of what use to be public land, and used solely by Microsoft execs a for a few days a year. This big money then led to Bozeman blowing up with no smart growth plan, just all sprawl and box stores now. And already it has become the next Boulder, with it slew of bourgeoisie shops downtown, and yes, a great outdoorsy place to live, but only if you've got the Do Re Mi. Oracle is there in Bozeman now, and Google and FB are rumoured to be coming soon too...but tech per se isn't the main force killing MT, or the west, it's mostly our values that are. Perhaps, I can write a geat Montana story about a forrest service ranger, who leads a double life cutting fences, torching wasteful vacation mansions, and getting into conflicts with poachers, extractors, and rich asshole "ranchers" and developers. Maybe one day soon the beauty, majesty and stillness of MT will only be saved in stories, or maybe there is still a chance we can change out values and change our ways.

xeromal 9y ago
That story is called "Longmire" and its on netflix except it's WY not MT.
- typeformer 9y ago
  Cool, I will check it out.
wavefunction 9y ago
You get some rich people from somewhere else who move in and throw all local culture and tradition away. It's happening in Colorado. Every Fourteener (14,000+ foot mountains) used to be publicly accessible but we got some greedy folks who moved in and shut down that traditional access to at least five of them so far. If I ever come into a sizable fortune my plan is to acquire these lands and turn them over to the public. I would be happy to legally harass these folks into selling as well, if that's what it took. Maybe buy up the land surrounding theirs and cut off public access.
- sliverstorm 9y ago
  I share your dream plan, but with the public lands transfer movement fear the Fed would one day soon turn around and sell the bequeathment for a song. It might not happen today or this decade, but public lands are not immutable. So then I wonder if the best option is to set up some kind of management trust.
  - wavefunction 9y ago
    You're probably right considering that clown Zinke, who wasn't even born in Montana and doesn't appear to appreciate the real sentiments of many in the American West.
  - typeformer 9y ago
    The research is clear that Community Land Trust work, for both land management and for affordable housing. We need more CLT's and Co-ops all over this country.
- tiggybear 9y ago
  Just find the pharmaceuticals these greedy assholes are dependent on to stay alive, buy up the manufacturing rights, shut down production, and get rid of some of the world's problems. Could probably could get a kickstarter going, I'd donate.
- borkt 9y ago
  I really have no expertise in this area but with the amount of lawsuits that occur these days it feels like as soon as someone was paralyzed or killed accessing this land you would be on the hook for not preventing them from accessing it. I would hope that this isn't the case but it just feels like the way thinks are going.
  - jjoonathan 9y ago
    "They'll sue us if we're not assholes" is a common rationalization/excuse from assholes. Every time I've done a deep dive on one of these (only a few times, not a lawyer) I've found them to be a complete fabrication and on one occasion the actual inverse of the truth, in that the activity being rationalized was in fact illegal. I'm sure there are plenty of cases where the claim is legitimate, but there are more than plenty where it's not.
brightsize 9y ago
>Perhaps, I can write a geat Montana story about a forrest service ranger, who leads a double life cutting fences, torching wasteful mansions and getting into conflicts with poachers, extractors, and rich asshole "rancher" and developers. This brings to mind Edward Abbey's book The Monkey Wrench Gang. I can't recommend his books enough, especially Desert Solitaire.
- typeformer 9y ago
  Yeah, I've read and enjoyed both!
sliverstorm 9y ago
tech per se isn't the main force killing MT, or the west, it's mostly our values that are. Which values? Can you expand a little? I have guesses, but would like to hear from you.
- typeformer 9y ago
  I'm actually working on a solar punk book about this topic too, hehe. It can be hard to articulate but the word that does it best is "wetiko". No book has impacted me more in my worldview in the last three years than, "Columbus and Other Cannibals: The Wetiko Disease of Exploitation, Imperialism, and Terrorism" by Jack D. Forbes, a native professor who started the first Native American Studies Program. If you read only one single book this year, please read this small powerful book. On a personal note, my father didn't teach me much very much technically, or set the greatest example, but he did share his love of Montana, Flyfishing, the rivers and the mountains with me when I was young and I'm forever be grateful to him for that (even if he kind of an asshole). He taught me to respect nature, and leave no trace, values that he learned from my grandfather when they went on Sierra Club trips together. I spent 17 amazing years in Montana, some of the very best of my life and I hear it calling me back. I'm getting a bit emotional as I type this, but even if it takes humanity a while to articulate it exactly, and much will be left unspoken, we know what is missing, we feel it deep down, and no amount of tech or money will ever fill that void. We need to move in harmony with the natural world and each other "be in right relations" as many first nations people call it. It will take time, be more than anything it will take some soul searching and courage.
  - aj_g 9y ago
    I'll be reading this book, thanks for the recommendation.
ewhanley 9y ago
I grew up in central Montana but now live on the west coast too, and I’m astonished at how quickly it’s changing. The bellwether for me is the fact that stream access law* is being challenged (most notably by Gianforte and other wealthy, often absentee landowners). If public stream access is lost, I’ll know the state and it’s civic makeup has changed irreversibly. *Everything below the high water mark is publicly accessible per Montana state law.
- takk309 9y ago
  Gianforte is the best example of wealthy land owners blocking access. He came from out of state, got luck with his tech company when Oracle came knocking, and now he wants to pretend he is the embodiment of Montana. All the while he is more than happy to block access to others whenever he can.
  - enraged_camel 9y ago
    Forget about being an absentee wealthy landowner. The dude chokeslammed a Guardian journalist for having the audacity to try to get him to answer some questions. Then he got elected to Congress!
- typeformer 9y ago
  This is very true, changing that law would be totally catastrophic!
- derefr 9y ago
  > Everything below the high water mark is publicly accessible per Montana state law Huh, does that mean you can legally travel through someone's private property by walking/wading the length of a stream that passes through it? (i.e. the stream is effectively a public footpath?)
  - s0rce 9y ago
    I'm not from MT but I believe that is the correct interpretation, similiar to the laws surrounding California coastline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_Stream_Access_Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_Stream_Access_Law
panopticon 9y ago
I spent a few years in West Yellowstone before also ending up on the west coast. I miss the area dearly, and the idea of being able to find a good tech gig in Bozeman seems to be more real every year. But then I feel like I'd only contribute to the erosion of what makes it a great... At least I've been able to fly directly into West Yellowstone now?
dboreham 9y ago
I've lived in Livingston for nearly 20 years and I know Alex, and his kids are classmates of mine. This has been big news locally for a while but interesting to see it hit the national wires. However, I grew up in Scotland where we have a somewhat longer history of dealing with access to land and rich people ;) The solution there is that there is a legal right to access wild land. Note this doesn't just apply to "public land" but all land public or private. http://www.snh.org.uk/pdfs/publications/access/full%20code.pdf http://www.snh.org.uk/pdfs/publications/access/full%20code.p... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam One of the rights lost when folks moved to "the land of the free", it seems.
- JBlue42 9y ago
  Same in Scandinavia
- vogt 9y ago
  OT, but I have to imagine (as someone who has visited Livingston) that you might well be the only person to ever grow up in Scotland and live in Livingston for 20 years. Kinda interesting.
  - dboreham 9y ago
    Turns out not. There are at least two true Scottish people in the Livingston area. I haven't met either one yet but I have chatted with the guy at the special order doors/windows desk in Lowes in Bozeman. He's from East Kilbride.
- Joe-Z 9y ago
  That solution seems so obvious, I was thinking that the whole time I read the article: Why allow people to so zealously defend their property rights on a huge plot of land that's hundreds of acres big? It's not like you're standing in their living room. OTOH maybe that's just my European perspective where we're used to living 'cramped' (as opposed to the vastness of the Americas).
  - 9y ago

xeromal 9y ago

That story is called "Longmire" and its on netflix except it's WY not MT.

typeformer 9y ago
Cool, I will check it out.

wavefunction 9y ago

You get some rich people from somewhere else who move in and throw all local culture and tradition away. It's happening in Colorado. Every Fourteener (14,000+ foot mountains) used to be publicly accessible but we got some greedy folks who moved in and shut down that traditional access to at least five of them so far. If I ever come into a sizable fortune my plan is to acquire these lands and turn them over to the public. I would be happy to legally harass these folks into selling as well, if that's what it took. Maybe buy up the land surrounding theirs and cut off public access.

sliverstorm 9y ago
I share your dream plan, but with the public lands transfer movement fear the Fed would one day soon turn around and sell the bequeathment for a song. It might not happen today or this decade, but public lands are not immutable. So then I wonder if the best option is to set up some kind of management trust.
- wavefunction 9y ago
  You're probably right considering that clown Zinke, who wasn't even born in Montana and doesn't appear to appreciate the real sentiments of many in the American West.
- typeformer 9y ago
  The research is clear that Community Land Trust work, for both land management and for affordable housing. We need more CLT's and Co-ops all over this country.
tiggybear 9y ago
Just find the pharmaceuticals these greedy assholes are dependent on to stay alive, buy up the manufacturing rights, shut down production, and get rid of some of the world's problems. Could probably could get a kickstarter going, I'd donate.
borkt 9y ago
I really have no expertise in this area but with the amount of lawsuits that occur these days it feels like as soon as someone was paralyzed or killed accessing this land you would be on the hook for not preventing them from accessing it. I would hope that this isn't the case but it just feels like the way thinks are going.
- jjoonathan 9y ago
  "They'll sue us if we're not assholes" is a common rationalization/excuse from assholes. Every time I've done a deep dive on one of these (only a few times, not a lawyer) I've found them to be a complete fabrication and on one occasion the actual inverse of the truth, in that the activity being rationalized was in fact illegal. I'm sure there are plenty of cases where the claim is legitimate, but there are more than plenty where it's not.

brightsize 9y ago

>Perhaps, I can write a geat Montana story about a forrest service ranger, who leads a double life cutting fences, torching wasteful mansions and getting into conflicts with poachers, extractors, and rich asshole "rancher" and developers. This brings to mind Edward Abbey's book The Monkey Wrench Gang. I can't recommend his books enough, especially Desert Solitaire.

typeformer 9y ago
Yeah, I've read and enjoyed both!

sliverstorm 9y ago

tech per se isn't the main force killing MT, or the west, it's mostly our values that are. Which values? Can you expand a little? I have guesses, but would like to hear from you.

typeformer 9y ago
I'm actually working on a solar punk book about this topic too, hehe. It can be hard to articulate but the word that does it best is "wetiko". No book has impacted me more in my worldview in the last three years than, "Columbus and Other Cannibals: The Wetiko Disease of Exploitation, Imperialism, and Terrorism" by Jack D. Forbes, a native professor who started the first Native American Studies Program. If you read only one single book this year, please read this small powerful book. On a personal note, my father didn't teach me much very much technically, or set the greatest example, but he did share his love of Montana, Flyfishing, the rivers and the mountains with me when I was young and I'm forever be grateful to him for that (even if he kind of an asshole). He taught me to respect nature, and leave no trace, values that he learned from my grandfather when they went on Sierra Club trips together. I spent 17 amazing years in Montana, some of the very best of my life and I hear it calling me back. I'm getting a bit emotional as I type this, but even if it takes humanity a while to articulate it exactly, and much will be left unspoken, we know what is missing, we feel it deep down, and no amount of tech or money will ever fill that void. We need to move in harmony with the natural world and each other "be in right relations" as many first nations people call it. It will take time, be more than anything it will take some soul searching and courage.
- aj_g 9y ago
  I'll be reading this book, thanks for the recommendation.

ewhanley 9y ago

I grew up in central Montana but now live on the west coast too, and I’m astonished at how quickly it’s changing. The bellwether for me is the fact that stream access law* is being challenged (most notably by Gianforte and other wealthy, often absentee landowners). If public stream access is lost, I’ll know the state and it’s civic makeup has changed irreversibly. *Everything below the high water mark is publicly accessible per Montana state law.

takk309 9y ago
Gianforte is the best example of wealthy land owners blocking access. He came from out of state, got luck with his tech company when Oracle came knocking, and now he wants to pretend he is the embodiment of Montana. All the while he is more than happy to block access to others whenever he can.
- enraged_camel 9y ago
  Forget about being an absentee wealthy landowner. The dude chokeslammed a Guardian journalist for having the audacity to try to get him to answer some questions. Then he got elected to Congress!
typeformer 9y ago
This is very true, changing that law would be totally catastrophic!
derefr 9y ago
> Everything below the high water mark is publicly accessible per Montana state law Huh, does that mean you can legally travel through someone's private property by walking/wading the length of a stream that passes through it? (i.e. the stream is effectively a public footpath?)
- s0rce 9y ago
  I'm not from MT but I believe that is the correct interpretation, similiar to the laws surrounding California coastline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_Stream_Access_Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_Stream_Access_Law

panopticon 9y ago

I spent a few years in West Yellowstone before also ending up on the west coast. I miss the area dearly, and the idea of being able to find a good tech gig in Bozeman seems to be more real every year. But then I feel like I'd only contribute to the erosion of what makes it a great... At least I've been able to fly directly into West Yellowstone now?

dboreham 9y ago

I've lived in Livingston for nearly 20 years and I know Alex, and his kids are classmates of mine. This has been big news locally for a while but interesting to see it hit the national wires. However, I grew up in Scotland where we have a somewhat longer history of dealing with access to land and rich people ;) The solution there is that there is a legal right to access wild land. Note this doesn't just apply to "public land" but all land public or private. http://www.snh.org.uk/pdfs/publications/access/full%20code.pdf http://www.snh.org.uk/pdfs/publications/access/full%20code.p... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam One of the rights lost when folks moved to "the land of the free", it seems.

JBlue42 9y ago
Same in Scandinavia
vogt 9y ago
OT, but I have to imagine (as someone who has visited Livingston) that you might well be the only person to ever grow up in Scotland and live in Livingston for 20 years. Kinda interesting.
- dboreham 9y ago
  Turns out not. There are at least two true Scottish people in the Livingston area. I haven't met either one yet but I have chatted with the guy at the special order doors/windows desk in Lowes in Bozeman. He's from East Kilbride.
Joe-Z 9y ago
That solution seems so obvious, I was thinking that the whole time I read the article: Why allow people to so zealously defend their property rights on a huge plot of land that's hundreds of acres big? It's not like you're standing in their living room. OTOH maybe that's just my European perspective where we're used to living 'cramped' (as opposed to the vastness of the Americas).
- 9y ago