10 ms·

Where does this line of thinking lead? I mean it's one thing to limit any attempts at intimacy in the workplace, but if you're just 'influential enough' then yo

by zaroth 9y ago

Where does this line of thinking lead? I mean it's one thing to limit any attempts at intimacy in the workplace, but if you're just 'influential enough' then you expand this definition to include anyone in the entire tech sector? This seems clearly illogical. Again, if there was assault it's a totally different matter. But sexual harassment is a lower bar specifically because of the idea no one should have to work in a hostile work environment. You can't create a hostile work environment if you're not actually working with someone or exerting direct influence over their career?

TarpitCarnivore 9y ago
> You can't create a hostile work environment if you're not actually working with someone or exerting direct influence over their career? Quinn's story was not at a 'work environment' so does it have any less impact? Why are you letting him adjust the narrative to define what he feels is harassment?
- openmosix 9y ago
  Let's also not forget that it was a conference. A very laid back-camping kind of conference, but a conference. In today's standards - where you can't join a project or visit/talk to a conference without accepting a CoC - this would still be considered an extension of the workplace, or at least be classified as a "professional setting". We are not talking rocket science: if you are in a professional setting, getting overly drunk, make out in public and then proceeding to random groping - is NOT ok. You can have him redefine the narrative however he wants, he still a serial sexual offender.
  - zaroth 9y ago
    Read back to the context of my question. Two drunk people coming together to "make out" at a camp out -- this is a "conference" like Burning Man is a conference -- if this is in and of itself is creating a "hostile work environment" I think that words are losing their meaning. I don't really care what kind of narrative Scoble is trying to make. I have no knowledge of the specifics of his situation or his encounters, and couldn't care less about passing judgement on him. But I was very curious about this idea that, which seems to be stated throughout this thread, someone can become so influential in an industry that any non-professional contact they have industry-wide could be sexual harassment. And again, and again, I have to say, if there was assault that is just a completely different issue entirely.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - rcade 9y ago
      I don't know where you're getting the idea it's not a conference. Here's a link to a photo set from Foo Camp 2010, where the incident occurred: https://www.flickr.com/photos/deanputney/sets/72157624362235774/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/deanputney/sets/72157624362235... Burning Man it ain't.
- zaroth 9y ago
  Quinn's story sounds like assault and has nothing to do with sexual harassment. To me that just muddies the waters.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    Surely he doesn't intend to say "I'm not guilty of sexual harassment but rather sexual assault."
    - zaroth 9y ago
      Not at all. Sexual harassment describes different behavior than assault, and is not a crime. The same behavior which may be sexual harassment in one context could be entirely appropriate in another context. And all that is to say, there is a necessary context to sexual harassment. Scoble claims that any sexual advances he made lacked the necessary context to be considered sexual harassment. He may not even be wrong. I referenced the UN fact sheet on "What is Sexual Harassment" in another comment but perhaps I should quote it directly; Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature _when_ (emphasis added): · Submission to such conduct is made either explicitly or implicitly a term or condition of an individual's employment, or · Submission to or rejection of such conduct by an individual is used as a basis for employment decisions affecting such individual, or · Such conduct has the purpose or effect of unreasonably interfering with an individual's work performance or creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive working environment.
      - emodendroket 9y ago
        To me, hairsplitting about whether the conduct technically counts as sexual harassment is more or less beside the point and even getting into it makes the allegations sound more, rather than less, credible.
        zaroth 9y ago
        Maybe I misunderstood the purpose of this thread. I didn't think this was about assessing the specific allegations at all, but precisely about understanding the definition of sexual harassment.
openmosix 9y ago
If you are the keynote speaker of a conference, DO NOT flirt with other attendees or other coworkers, regardless of the line of report. There are code of conduct left and right for a reason. Saying "they were not my employees" does not excuse you from using your influence, in a work-related setting, to approach someone else for sex matters.
- jsmthrowaway 9y ago
  Even simpler than that, really: treat a conference and the outside social stuff that rides along as a work environment regardless of your status or role. You’re not at a knitting convention. You’re meeting professional peers. I had to fuck up to learn this, and I think it’s extremely important. Q: Would I do $thing if this were at my office? A: No. Done.
  - TarpitCarnivore 9y ago
    Let's go even more simple: Just be a decent human being What you do and don't do should not be tied entirely to work relation situations.
    - zaroth 9y ago
      Decent human beings make unwanted sexual advances all the fucking time. We can't read each other's minds after all. This is why we go to the trouble of defining a "sexual harassment" standard in the workplace, which holds coworkers to a higher standard of care than what is expected outside of the workplace. Obviously we are not supposed to live our lives interacting with every other human purely professionally.
      - countryslicker 9y ago
        Wow. Mind reading is not required. You've watched too many movies that go from strangers to married with children in 90 minutes. How about spending weeks, months, and even years building a relationship? Talking->dating->holding hands->... Spend more than 5 minutes on each stage. I know it seems old-fashioned, but it can really reduce the degree of offense when you misjudge the stage of a relationship.
slg 9y ago
I believe you are looking at this problem the wrong way. Part of that is the fault of the media and all of us on social media that focus on the heinousness of Harvey Weinstein's actions and our immediate move to dehumanize and vilify him. Weinstein was so far past the line that it might cloud were the line actually is. It is only natural for men to look at him and go "I'm not that bad, I didn't threaten anyone, I didn't rape anyone, I didn't proposition anyone I have direct control over, I didn't do any of this at work, etc.". However the line isn't people being sexually harassed at work, it is people being sexually harassed at all. This isn't limited to drunkenly groping women at tech conferences or asking women you might potentially hire to shower with you. The problem is that your first romantic move with someone shouldn't be a grope or an offer to get naked. Simply don't behave in that manor until you know your actions will be received positively by the other person. It really isn't that difficult to simply treat people with empathy and think of their responses to your actions before you make them. If you do that you will never even get to the point of unwantedly groping someone.
- zaroth 9y ago
  In a perfect world, no one's feelings get hurt in love, and there is no war. We do not live in that world, and as mere mortals we are incapable of creating such a utopia. It's a strawman that "your first romantic move with someone shouldn't be a grope or an offer to get naked." The reality is that ham-fisted proposals and hurtful rejection are rampant 'out there on the dance floor' and the purpose of sexual harassment policy is not, in fact, a idealized manual on how to behave in love and romance, but rules which apply exclusively in the workplace in order to ensure equality in the workplace. If you're talking about sexual harassment outside of the workplace, then you're Doing It Wrong. If you're conflating poorly executed romantic endeavor with what is actually assault, that's even worse. Please understand I'm engaging in the debate not to defend some asshole who I don't know and couldn't care two shits about, but I think there's a deeper meaning & understanding to be had here... It seems to me, only from what little I've read about the man, that Scoble quite clearly is a jerk and an ass, and he owes quite a few people quite a few apologies. That much I most certainly am not debating! I feel like we're on the cusp of a great wave of progress in the area. But I think if mere jerks and assholes are the new target, the inevitable backlash could set the whole movement back a decade.
tptacek 9y ago
It leads to professionals treating their work as if it was a profession.

by zaroth 9y ago

TarpitCarnivore 9y ago

> You can't create a hostile work environment if you're not actually working with someone or exerting direct influence over their career? Quinn's story was not at a 'work environment' so does it have any less impact? Why are you letting him adjust the narrative to define what he feels is harassment?

openmosix 9y ago
Let's also not forget that it was a conference. A very laid back-camping kind of conference, but a conference. In today's standards - where you can't join a project or visit/talk to a conference without accepting a CoC - this would still be considered an extension of the workplace, or at least be classified as a "professional setting". We are not talking rocket science: if you are in a professional setting, getting overly drunk, make out in public and then proceeding to random groping - is NOT ok. You can have him redefine the narrative however he wants, he still a serial sexual offender.
- zaroth 9y ago
  Read back to the context of my question. Two drunk people coming together to "make out" at a camp out -- this is a "conference" like Burning Man is a conference -- if this is in and of itself is creating a "hostile work environment" I think that words are losing their meaning. I don't really care what kind of narrative Scoble is trying to make. I have no knowledge of the specifics of his situation or his encounters, and couldn't care less about passing judgement on him. But I was very curious about this idea that, which seems to be stated throughout this thread, someone can become so influential in an industry that any non-professional contact they have industry-wide could be sexual harassment. And again, and again, I have to say, if there was assault that is just a completely different issue entirely.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - rcade 9y ago
    I don't know where you're getting the idea it's not a conference. Here's a link to a photo set from Foo Camp 2010, where the incident occurred: https://www.flickr.com/photos/deanputney/sets/72157624362235774/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/deanputney/sets/72157624362235... Burning Man it ain't.
zaroth 9y ago
Quinn's story sounds like assault and has nothing to do with sexual harassment. To me that just muddies the waters.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  Surely he doesn't intend to say "I'm not guilty of sexual harassment but rather sexual assault."
  - zaroth 9y ago
    Not at all. Sexual harassment describes different behavior than assault, and is not a crime. The same behavior which may be sexual harassment in one context could be entirely appropriate in another context. And all that is to say, there is a necessary context to sexual harassment. Scoble claims that any sexual advances he made lacked the necessary context to be considered sexual harassment. He may not even be wrong. I referenced the UN fact sheet on "What is Sexual Harassment" in another comment but perhaps I should quote it directly; Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature _when_ (emphasis added): · Submission to such conduct is made either explicitly or implicitly a term or condition of an individual's employment, or · Submission to or rejection of such conduct by an individual is used as a basis for employment decisions affecting such individual, or · Such conduct has the purpose or effect of unreasonably interfering with an individual's work performance or creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive working environment.
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      To me, hairsplitting about whether the conduct technically counts as sexual harassment is more or less beside the point and even getting into it makes the allegations sound more, rather than less, credible.
      - zaroth 9y ago
        Maybe I misunderstood the purpose of this thread. I didn't think this was about assessing the specific allegations at all, but precisely about understanding the definition of sexual harassment.

openmosix 9y ago

If you are the keynote speaker of a conference, DO NOT flirt with other attendees or other coworkers, regardless of the line of report. There are code of conduct left and right for a reason. Saying "they were not my employees" does not excuse you from using your influence, in a work-related setting, to approach someone else for sex matters.

jsmthrowaway 9y ago
Even simpler than that, really: treat a conference and the outside social stuff that rides along as a work environment regardless of your status or role. You’re not at a knitting convention. You’re meeting professional peers. I had to fuck up to learn this, and I think it’s extremely important. Q: Would I do $thing if this were at my office? A: No. Done.
- TarpitCarnivore 9y ago
  Let's go even more simple: Just be a decent human being What you do and don't do should not be tied entirely to work relation situations.
  - zaroth 9y ago
    Decent human beings make unwanted sexual advances all the fucking time. We can't read each other's minds after all. This is why we go to the trouble of defining a "sexual harassment" standard in the workplace, which holds coworkers to a higher standard of care than what is expected outside of the workplace. Obviously we are not supposed to live our lives interacting with every other human purely professionally.
    - countryslicker 9y ago
      Wow. Mind reading is not required. You've watched too many movies that go from strangers to married with children in 90 minutes. How about spending weeks, months, and even years building a relationship? Talking->dating->holding hands->... Spend more than 5 minutes on each stage. I know it seems old-fashioned, but it can really reduce the degree of offense when you misjudge the stage of a relationship.

slg 9y ago

I believe you are looking at this problem the wrong way. Part of that is the fault of the media and all of us on social media that focus on the heinousness of Harvey Weinstein's actions and our immediate move to dehumanize and vilify him. Weinstein was so far past the line that it might cloud were the line actually is. It is only natural for men to look at him and go "I'm not that bad, I didn't threaten anyone, I didn't rape anyone, I didn't proposition anyone I have direct control over, I didn't do any of this at work, etc.". However the line isn't people being sexually harassed at work, it is people being sexually harassed at all. This isn't limited to drunkenly groping women at tech conferences or asking women you might potentially hire to shower with you. The problem is that your first romantic move with someone shouldn't be a grope or an offer to get naked. Simply don't behave in that manor until you know your actions will be received positively by the other person. It really isn't that difficult to simply treat people with empathy and think of their responses to your actions before you make them. If you do that you will never even get to the point of unwantedly groping someone.

zaroth 9y ago
In a perfect world, no one's feelings get hurt in love, and there is no war. We do not live in that world, and as mere mortals we are incapable of creating such a utopia. It's a strawman that "your first romantic move with someone shouldn't be a grope or an offer to get naked." The reality is that ham-fisted proposals and hurtful rejection are rampant 'out there on the dance floor' and the purpose of sexual harassment policy is not, in fact, a idealized manual on how to behave in love and romance, but rules which apply exclusively in the workplace in order to ensure equality in the workplace. If you're talking about sexual harassment outside of the workplace, then you're Doing It Wrong. If you're conflating poorly executed romantic endeavor with what is actually assault, that's even worse. Please understand I'm engaging in the debate not to defend some asshole who I don't know and couldn't care two shits about, but I think there's a deeper meaning & understanding to be had here... It seems to me, only from what little I've read about the man, that Scoble quite clearly is a jerk and an ass, and he owes quite a few people quite a few apologies. That much I most certainly am not debating! I feel like we're on the cusp of a great wave of progress in the area. But I think if mere jerks and assholes are the new target, the inevitable backlash could set the whole movement back a decade.

tptacek 9y ago

It leads to professionals treating their work as if it was a profession.