4 ms·

I like to have side projects, but I still don't like to share them. People love to find reasons to reject, and an 18, 11, or 7 year long side project (the age

by sbov 9y ago

I like to have side projects, but I still don't like to share them. People love to find reasons to reject, and an 18, 11, or 7 year long side project (the age of all my side projects) isn't really a fair representation of how I code today. Even as someone who enjoys side projects, the prospect of sharing a side project, and being criticized by a potential employer about the contents of it, turns it from "side project" to work.

2trill2spill 9y ago
> Even as someone who enjoys side projects, the prospect of sharing a side project, and being criticized by a potential employer about the contents of it, turns it from "side project" to work. You should be able to take constructive criticism of your work regardless if it's a side project or not.
- km3k 9y ago
  Even if they dive into a corner of your side project from 10 years ago that works, but you realize isn't ideal, and you don't have the time to improve that part of the code?
  - 2trill2spill 9y ago
    > Even if they dive into a corner of your side project from 10 years ago that works, but you realize isn't ideal, and you don't have the time to improve that part of the code? Yes, you basically answered the question your self. Tell the interviewer that you wrote that code ten years ago and while it works it's less then ideal, then explain why its not ideal and what a better solution would be.
  - wrs 9y ago
    The conversation where you explain what's not ideal and what you would improve based on what you've learned since is why I would want to talk about your side project in the first place. If you said your side project was perfect and couldn't be improved, that would be a major red flag!
  - Xylakant 9y ago
    I, as an employer would like to have a conversation about that and I’d absolutely take “I know this could be better, but it was written years ago and it works” as a perfectly good answer. Software can always be better, requirements change and so do capabilities and styles of the people writing the code. But we cannot rewrite all parts of all our software all the time for the sake of molding it to fit our current vision of perfect. Time is limited. Finding the line between “this is not perfect, but it does the job” and “this really holds us back and needs change” is in my opinion one of the most valuable skills a seasoned programmer can acquire.
- 482794793792894 9y ago
  That's not the point they're making. What they mean is that if they consider side projects as potential criteria for being hired or not, they'll lose the fun in those side projects. Because they'll then try to make every part of the code perfect and with complete documentation for everything, probably spending more time trying to present it rather than working on it.
- megous 9y ago
  Why? I strongly doubt any criticism from a potential employer would be any good in the context of hiring. Almost all of the side projects would have undocumented constraints and requirements on which the design/engineering decisions were based. And I doubt the interviewer would take time to ask for design constraints beforehand and then go through the code enough to understand its design/architecture and have interesting criticisms that would bring something positive for the side project in the future. You can't criticize design decisions without context. I would not be welcoming to someone criticizing my side projects without first asking for context/design constraints the work was based on. I would not lash out or whatever. But I would not take the criticism without some sense of other person's care for the side project in question.
- watwut 9y ago
  He hadn't said he is afraid of constructive criticism. He said he is afraid someone will hold something in it against him. The two are profoundly different.
hobofan 9y ago
Have you ever had an interview where you shared your side projects, and they were criticized? From my experiences on both sides of the hiring game, side projects aren't really criticized in an interview but are rather used as a starting point for a conversation to explore the ways of thinking of the potential employee. "What was on of the most challenging parts about your project?" is probably one of the most common questions there, and I'd guess that long-running side projects (even if they have a lot of inactivity in them) contain challenges like any other project, maybe even more so.
- appleiigs 9y ago
  You can have this conversation about the day-job code.
  - hobofan 9y ago
    Yes, of course, you can, but my comment was meant to address the concerns of the parent. If you have side projects, you don't have to be afraid that they will criticize and judge you X-Factor style about them. If the applicant has side projects, it's often easier to talk about them instead of day-job code, since they usually are more passionate about that, and they can talk about it more freely because they don't have to be afraid to (accidentally) spill company secrets. Side projects are not a must and I've had good conversations with applicants about their work projects, though more confidence to talk about them is something that comes with seniority in my experience.
dualogy 9y ago
> I like to have side projects, but I still don't like to share them. People love to find reasons to reject Nowadays you can share anything online (git or other) without fear of rejection, because unless you choose point select individuals to it, in today's deep oceans of "everyone sharing every random little bone they spewed up" it'll immediately drown and stay there forever undetected and unnoticed. Doubly so if you don't fill out repo description or tags. (There's must be gazillions of solo hackers dumping their sources of the coolest little projects and experiments without any attention, simply because they don't go and spend the day yapping on about it everywhere --- they Just Keep On Hacking.) The upside of doing so? If a code file that's way below your current skills is indeed many years old, this becomes clearly visible in the repo and there's no need to explain yourself --- if choosing to indeed point someone to your personal for-fun code-bases.
jjcm 9y ago
Here's what I've done for something like this - a few days before I was set to do rounds of interviews, I took a couple hours for each of my old side projects to comment what I would have done differently in my code. It's much easier to do and it gives the employers a dive into your current thinking when it comes to development. As an example, check the source on my homepage: http://jjcm.org http://jjcm.org
- pseudoramble 9y ago
  This was neat. It also seems like a good way to show how you might discuss your work and others work, as well as your sense of humor. It almost felt like reading one of those "the annotated source code of X" sites. How many of these side projects have you done this for? If nothing else, that was an entertaining read.
  - jjcm 9y ago
    I did it for two other side projects. A simple connect four game that I made right when I was learning javascript and an old handlebars.js site I made. I got a lot of positive feedback regarding it from interviews though. Seemed like it worked well. Glad you found it entertaining!
ryandrake 9y ago
Also, keep in mind that some people can't share side projects or even work on them because their employers lay claim to all code they create, even on their free time.
- BenjiWiebe 9y ago
  I'm curious, how can that be legally possible? That's like working in a restaurant and not being allowed to cook a meal for visitors at home!

by sbov 9y ago

2trill2spill 9y ago

> Even as someone who enjoys side projects, the prospect of sharing a side project, and being criticized by a potential employer about the contents of it, turns it from "side project" to work. You should be able to take constructive criticism of your work regardless if it's a side project or not.

km3k 9y ago
Even if they dive into a corner of your side project from 10 years ago that works, but you realize isn't ideal, and you don't have the time to improve that part of the code?
- 2trill2spill 9y ago
  > Even if they dive into a corner of your side project from 10 years ago that works, but you realize isn't ideal, and you don't have the time to improve that part of the code? Yes, you basically answered the question your self. Tell the interviewer that you wrote that code ten years ago and while it works it's less then ideal, then explain why its not ideal and what a better solution would be.
- wrs 9y ago
  The conversation where you explain what's not ideal and what you would improve based on what you've learned since is why I would want to talk about your side project in the first place. If you said your side project was perfect and couldn't be improved, that would be a major red flag!
- Xylakant 9y ago
  I, as an employer would like to have a conversation about that and I’d absolutely take “I know this could be better, but it was written years ago and it works” as a perfectly good answer. Software can always be better, requirements change and so do capabilities and styles of the people writing the code. But we cannot rewrite all parts of all our software all the time for the sake of molding it to fit our current vision of perfect. Time is limited. Finding the line between “this is not perfect, but it does the job” and “this really holds us back and needs change” is in my opinion one of the most valuable skills a seasoned programmer can acquire.
482794793792894 9y ago
That's not the point they're making. What they mean is that if they consider side projects as potential criteria for being hired or not, they'll lose the fun in those side projects. Because they'll then try to make every part of the code perfect and with complete documentation for everything, probably spending more time trying to present it rather than working on it.
megous 9y ago
Why? I strongly doubt any criticism from a potential employer would be any good in the context of hiring. Almost all of the side projects would have undocumented constraints and requirements on which the design/engineering decisions were based. And I doubt the interviewer would take time to ask for design constraints beforehand and then go through the code enough to understand its design/architecture and have interesting criticisms that would bring something positive for the side project in the future. You can't criticize design decisions without context. I would not be welcoming to someone criticizing my side projects without first asking for context/design constraints the work was based on. I would not lash out or whatever. But I would not take the criticism without some sense of other person's care for the side project in question.
watwut 9y ago
He hadn't said he is afraid of constructive criticism. He said he is afraid someone will hold something in it against him. The two are profoundly different.

hobofan 9y ago

Have you ever had an interview where you shared your side projects, and they were criticized? From my experiences on both sides of the hiring game, side projects aren't really criticized in an interview but are rather used as a starting point for a conversation to explore the ways of thinking of the potential employee. "What was on of the most challenging parts about your project?" is probably one of the most common questions there, and I'd guess that long-running side projects (even if they have a lot of inactivity in them) contain challenges like any other project, maybe even more so.

appleiigs 9y ago
You can have this conversation about the day-job code.
- hobofan 9y ago
  Yes, of course, you can, but my comment was meant to address the concerns of the parent. If you have side projects, you don't have to be afraid that they will criticize and judge you X-Factor style about them. If the applicant has side projects, it's often easier to talk about them instead of day-job code, since they usually are more passionate about that, and they can talk about it more freely because they don't have to be afraid to (accidentally) spill company secrets. Side projects are not a must and I've had good conversations with applicants about their work projects, though more confidence to talk about them is something that comes with seniority in my experience.

dualogy 9y ago

> I like to have side projects, but I still don't like to share them. People love to find reasons to reject Nowadays you can share anything online (git or other) without fear of rejection, because unless you choose point select individuals to it, in today's deep oceans of "everyone sharing every random little bone they spewed up" it'll immediately drown and stay there forever undetected and unnoticed. Doubly so if you don't fill out repo description or tags. (There's must be gazillions of solo hackers dumping their sources of the coolest little projects and experiments without any attention, simply because they don't go and spend the day yapping on about it everywhere --- they Just Keep On Hacking.) The upside of doing so? If a code file that's way below your current skills is indeed many years old, this becomes clearly visible in the repo and there's no need to explain yourself --- if choosing to indeed point someone to your personal for-fun code-bases.

jjcm 9y ago

Here's what I've done for something like this - a few days before I was set to do rounds of interviews, I took a couple hours for each of my old side projects to comment what I would have done differently in my code. It's much easier to do and it gives the employers a dive into your current thinking when it comes to development. As an example, check the source on my homepage: http://jjcm.org http://jjcm.org

pseudoramble 9y ago
This was neat. It also seems like a good way to show how you might discuss your work and others work, as well as your sense of humor. It almost felt like reading one of those "the annotated source code of X" sites. How many of these side projects have you done this for? If nothing else, that was an entertaining read.
- jjcm 9y ago
  I did it for two other side projects. A simple connect four game that I made right when I was learning javascript and an old handlebars.js site I made. I got a lot of positive feedback regarding it from interviews though. Seemed like it worked well. Glad you found it entertaining!

ryandrake 9y ago

Also, keep in mind that some people can't share side projects or even work on them because their employers lay claim to all code they create, even on their free time.

BenjiWiebe 9y ago
I'm curious, how can that be legally possible? That's like working in a restaurant and not being allowed to cook a meal for visitors at home!