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Anonymous? My user can easily be googled... >> to try to preserve the argument that women are biologically inferior You clearly didn't read, because I made th

Anonymous? My user can easily be googled... >> to try to preserve the argument that women are biologically inferior You clearly didn't read, because I made the argument that women are less INTERESTED, not that they are biologically inferior. Get rid of that chip on your shoulder. This is why conservatives aren't willing to discuss these issues. Because the moment I call you out on using bullshit arguments you call me a sexist despite not having once made a single comment on the abilities of females. I used evidence proving that even at the high school level (where there are practically 0 bars for entry), girls constitute a significantly smaller part of the classroom than boys in CS/Physics/Calc 2, and then gave an example of a university system that legally was not allowed to consider gender as part of admissions having similar gender representation - because as it turns out most universities practice gender based affirmative action in STEM, and thus girls are overrepresented at schools like MIT and Stanford. It turns out that the 3:1, 4:1 ratios of the AP exams and Berkeley EECS department happen to be consistent with the hiring makeup of tech companies. >> we are steadily approaching them in law and medicine. The same stats I listed earlier show near equal representation in AP tests for AP History (World, European, and US), Government, Chemistry, and Biology. Some of these even skew towards majority female. So 50/50 representation is to be expected. Again, at this point in time, equal representation in tech would only be a product of discrimination against males. Perhaps it won't be the case in the future as there are more outreach efforts now than ever to get girls to pursue science. But I specifically worded my response the way I did for a reason.

lutorm 9y ago
I made the argument that women are less INTERESTED But interest is an outcome, influenced for example by the presence or absence of role models or the impression of certain fields as not welcoming to women. If I remember the state of things correctly, the gender imbalance of interest in science is not present at early ages but develops around junior high ages when kids start picking up on which jobs or fields are "appropriate" for males vs females. I don't think anyone is saying the gender imbalance is purely a result of hiring discrimination (although it likely plays a role), but there are clearly other biases in force that directly arise from the gender imbalance. How do you propose getting rid of those biases except by trying to "prime the pump"?
- jasonx1e 9y ago
  >> influenced for example by the presence or absence of role models or the impression of certain fields as not welcoming to women. Sure it can play a part in the outcome, but that in no way limits anyone from still pursuing the field, and hence there is still equality of opportunity. The latter is what (hopefully) any rational human being wants. I'm not against more outreach efforts or helping encourage more girls to pursue STEM. I personally volunteer at a science museum and have in the past been a TA for high school STEM MOOCs. What I am against is accusing the existing system for discriminating against females (unless you provide direct evidence that gender is the sole cause of the outcome inequality, which I will be happy to agree if the evidence is convincing) and then continuously lowering the bar for entry for females (thus achieving diversity but undermining meritocracy) - which is what I see happening right now.
- belorn 9y ago
  Influenced has two sides, negative and positive. You have to account for both when establishing a cause for an outcome. Just the other day I heard two kids around the age 10, a boy and a girl, talk about a life as a programmer. The boy wanted to make a AI so he could become rich and the girl wanted to make a AI to help make her social life better. The answers could not be more stereotypical gender defined. Men are valued and gain social rank through the pursuit of money so thats what is being imprinted onto the boy, women for their social skills. A world where both women and men is valued based on the same ability, that is the ability to get money, would be a world where you would have 50/50 in all professions.
wpietri 9y ago
> Anonymous? My user can easily be googled... Feel free to link it up with your real-world identity; I just find more generic profiles with the same user id. > women are less INTERESTED Yes, this is an example of your lack of historical grounding. That is the same sort of sexist nonsense that we've been seeing for generations. The argument goes: women aren't technically inferior, it's just that they're naturally not interested in bothering their pretty little heads with high-status jobs like law, medicine, and engineering. Their biology just drives them toward naturally nurturing jobs, like homemaker, paralegal, nurse, and secretary. Sure those jobs happen to be all low status, lower paying, and lacking in ability to advance to positions of authority. But it's just a coincidence that women's biological lack of interest happens to keep them subsidiary to men, just like they always have been. It's just "women are inferior" dressed up in a dinner jacket so it fits in with polite company. > where there are practically 0 bars for entry This is just shockingly ignorant. Please actually read about the topic. Plenty of women in tech have stories that bely this. Plenty of research refutes it. In America, gender socialization starts early and runs deep. > So 50/50 representation is to be expected Sure, now. 20 years ago, 50 years ago, 100 years ago, it wouldn't have been. And somebody just like you would have been posting impassioned screeds about how women just don't want to be doctors and lawyers. How the data clearly shows that they aren't interested. How any advancement past the current status quo would have been only due to shocking discrimination against men. As subsequent events prove, those dudes were making a self-serving, willfully ignorant argument. They were wrong. At least do yourself the service of understanding why before you post the same tired and discredited arguments in opposition to this generation's increment of progress in tearing down societal sexism.
- jasonx1e 9y ago
  >> "women are inferior" dressed up in a dinner jacket so it fits in with polite company No, it's not even close to the same. That an individual is less likely to choose a career doesn't mean that individual inherently is bad at it. You keep trying to imply that I think less of women. I don't. I'm happy to acknowledge there are plenty of women who are much better than me at tech and plenty that have helped me out. Just because there happen to be less doesn't mean they are inherently worse. And you could do well leaving out ad hominems. I have been respectful throughout this discussion, while you accuse me of sexism every other line. Most people aren't as impatient as I am when called a sexist as many times as you have. Do you see why conservatives avoid these discussions now? Odds are I've done more to bridge the gap than you have - I have been a TA for a high school AP Physics MOOC and I am a volunteer at the Lawrence Hall of Science. Do you spend your weekends tutoring young girls and getting them to pursue science? >> This is just shockingly ignorant. As someone who had at least 15 girls in my AP Computer Science class in high school, no, it's not. In fact, you can google the requirements needed for taking an AP exam: find a high school willing to let you take it (usually the high school you attend), and pay the $100 fee. That's it. >> Plenty of women in tech have stories that bely this. Sure there are plenty of successful women in tech. No one's making the claim that all women aren't interested, and it's never even been mentioned that women are worse at tech. They just happen in smaller numbers compared to men. >> Plenty of research refutes it. 93% of occupational deaths are men, as I have mentioned 2 posts ago. Why can't more women be truck drivers, police detectives, nuclear reactor facilitators, logistics workers, mechanics, or electricians? These jobs all happen to be high 5 figures and many are 6 figures. It turns out, it has nothing to do with tech being sexist, and all to do with women on average being less likely to chase riskier careers in favor of more stable careers at the expense of a lower salary.[1] >> At least do yourself the service of understanding why before you post the same tired and discredited arguments in opposition to this generation's increment of progress in tearing down societal sexism. All this theorizing, and you still don't explain to me why we see the distribution of the AP testing that we do, why at gender-blind universities the rate of females is lower than those that practice affirmative action bar-lowering, and why you think discriminating against qualified men is an appropriate solution. Until you provide feasible arguments to each of these, no amount of implicitly calling me a sexist is going to change my mind. [1]http://www.pnas.org/content/106/36/15268.full.pdf http://www.pnas.org/content/106/36/15268.full.pdf

lutorm 9y ago

I made the argument that women are less INTERESTED But interest is an outcome, influenced for example by the presence or absence of role models or the impression of certain fields as not welcoming to women. If I remember the state of things correctly, the gender imbalance of interest in science is not present at early ages but develops around junior high ages when kids start picking up on which jobs or fields are "appropriate" for males vs females. I don't think anyone is saying the gender imbalance is purely a result of hiring discrimination (although it likely plays a role), but there are clearly other biases in force that directly arise from the gender imbalance. How do you propose getting rid of those biases except by trying to "prime the pump"?

jasonx1e 9y ago
>> influenced for example by the presence or absence of role models or the impression of certain fields as not welcoming to women. Sure it can play a part in the outcome, but that in no way limits anyone from still pursuing the field, and hence there is still equality of opportunity. The latter is what (hopefully) any rational human being wants. I'm not against more outreach efforts or helping encourage more girls to pursue STEM. I personally volunteer at a science museum and have in the past been a TA for high school STEM MOOCs. What I am against is accusing the existing system for discriminating against females (unless you provide direct evidence that gender is the sole cause of the outcome inequality, which I will be happy to agree if the evidence is convincing) and then continuously lowering the bar for entry for females (thus achieving diversity but undermining meritocracy) - which is what I see happening right now.
belorn 9y ago
Influenced has two sides, negative and positive. You have to account for both when establishing a cause for an outcome. Just the other day I heard two kids around the age 10, a boy and a girl, talk about a life as a programmer. The boy wanted to make a AI so he could become rich and the girl wanted to make a AI to help make her social life better. The answers could not be more stereotypical gender defined. Men are valued and gain social rank through the pursuit of money so thats what is being imprinted onto the boy, women for their social skills. A world where both women and men is valued based on the same ability, that is the ability to get money, would be a world where you would have 50/50 in all professions.

wpietri 9y ago

> Anonymous? My user can easily be googled... Feel free to link it up with your real-world identity; I just find more generic profiles with the same user id. > women are less INTERESTED Yes, this is an example of your lack of historical grounding. That is the same sort of sexist nonsense that we've been seeing for generations. The argument goes: women aren't technically inferior, it's just that they're naturally not interested in bothering their pretty little heads with high-status jobs like law, medicine, and engineering. Their biology just drives them toward naturally nurturing jobs, like homemaker, paralegal, nurse, and secretary. Sure those jobs happen to be all low status, lower paying, and lacking in ability to advance to positions of authority. But it's just a coincidence that women's biological lack of interest happens to keep them subsidiary to men, just like they always have been. It's just "women are inferior" dressed up in a dinner jacket so it fits in with polite company. > where there are practically 0 bars for entry This is just shockingly ignorant. Please actually read about the topic. Plenty of women in tech have stories that bely this. Plenty of research refutes it. In America, gender socialization starts early and runs deep. > So 50/50 representation is to be expected Sure, now. 20 years ago, 50 years ago, 100 years ago, it wouldn't have been. And somebody just like you would have been posting impassioned screeds about how women just don't want to be doctors and lawyers. How the data clearly shows that they aren't interested. How any advancement past the current status quo would have been only due to shocking discrimination against men. As subsequent events prove, those dudes were making a self-serving, willfully ignorant argument. They were wrong. At least do yourself the service of understanding why before you post the same tired and discredited arguments in opposition to this generation's increment of progress in tearing down societal sexism.

jasonx1e 9y ago
>> "women are inferior" dressed up in a dinner jacket so it fits in with polite company No, it's not even close to the same. That an individual is less likely to choose a career doesn't mean that individual inherently is bad at it. You keep trying to imply that I think less of women. I don't. I'm happy to acknowledge there are plenty of women who are much better than me at tech and plenty that have helped me out. Just because there happen to be less doesn't mean they are inherently worse. And you could do well leaving out ad hominems. I have been respectful throughout this discussion, while you accuse me of sexism every other line. Most people aren't as impatient as I am when called a sexist as many times as you have. Do you see why conservatives avoid these discussions now? Odds are I've done more to bridge the gap than you have - I have been a TA for a high school AP Physics MOOC and I am a volunteer at the Lawrence Hall of Science. Do you spend your weekends tutoring young girls and getting them to pursue science? >> This is just shockingly ignorant. As someone who had at least 15 girls in my AP Computer Science class in high school, no, it's not. In fact, you can google the requirements needed for taking an AP exam: find a high school willing to let you take it (usually the high school you attend), and pay the $100 fee. That's it. >> Plenty of women in tech have stories that bely this. Sure there are plenty of successful women in tech. No one's making the claim that all women aren't interested, and it's never even been mentioned that women are worse at tech. They just happen in smaller numbers compared to men. >> Plenty of research refutes it. 93% of occupational deaths are men, as I have mentioned 2 posts ago. Why can't more women be truck drivers, police detectives, nuclear reactor facilitators, logistics workers, mechanics, or electricians? These jobs all happen to be high 5 figures and many are 6 figures. It turns out, it has nothing to do with tech being sexist, and all to do with women on average being less likely to chase riskier careers in favor of more stable careers at the expense of a lower salary.[1] >> At least do yourself the service of understanding why before you post the same tired and discredited arguments in opposition to this generation's increment of progress in tearing down societal sexism. All this theorizing, and you still don't explain to me why we see the distribution of the AP testing that we do, why at gender-blind universities the rate of females is lower than those that practice affirmative action bar-lowering, and why you think discriminating against qualified men is an appropriate solution. Until you provide feasible arguments to each of these, no amount of implicitly calling me a sexist is going to change my mind. [1]http://www.pnas.org/content/106/36/15268.full.pdf http://www.pnas.org/content/106/36/15268.full.pdf