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This doesn't really surprise me. A few years ago we had lead generation software that catered to the solar industry. We had some decent sized clients and it did

This doesn't really surprise me. A few years ago we had lead generation software that catered to the solar industry. We had some decent sized clients and it did really well for about 2 years. Once the tax credits started going away and the power companies started killing off their rebates, a lot of these solar companies were not able to survive. One of our larger clients who was heavily funded went bankrupt this year and many of the smaller/mid sized clients have folded within the last year too. It is risky basing too much of a business on tax credits and rebates.

jack6e 9y ago
I was thinking this myself. For all of Musk's braggadocio about not needing, and even being hurt by, subsidies, Tesla, whose profits only become more negative every quarter, has had its sales decimated in the countries that ended tax breaks for electric vehicles. With the specter of a major tax overhaul and massive spending cuts, a major recall, and still not enough strength to stand on its own, Musk has to be at least a little worried about Tesla's future and the futures of his other pet projects.
matt_wulfeck 9y ago
I’m surprised. At the rate PV has been falling these subsidies are probably negligible (federal rebate withstanding). I purchased PV because the cost with a 20-year loan comes out to be 13c kWh, meanwhile PG&E charges 29c kWh. And the loan interest is tax-deductible.
- sgc 9y ago
  What company did you use? I have received 3 quotes and none make much sense.
  - matt_wulfeck 9y ago
    Solarcity. Highly recommended.
    - sgc 9y ago
      Weird. I had them come by for a quote and they were about 25% more than the second closest bid. I never did the full math. This was on a 5kW installation.
      - matt_wulfeck 9y ago
        My email is in my profile if you want my details. Our system is 6.8kwh. I didn’t go with solarcity because they were the cheapest.
- 20years 9y ago
  If you purchase with a loan, you can get a much better deal and it can make sense. A lot of the solar companies were selling their low interest $0 down lease programs and they themselves were benefiting from the credits/rebates not the homeowner. Homeowners didn't really have to have a great credit score either. Once the credits and rebates went away, the lease programs weren't sustainable for the solar companies.
- vonmoltke 9y ago
  That rate is much higher than I paid in Texas or pay in New Jersey. In fact, I can buy wind power from Green Mountain for less than your solar install cost.
  - matt_wulfeck 9y ago
    Totally agree, it makes sense in many parts of the country because of a combination of incumbent electricity costs as well as high number of sunny days. Just a few miles away in Santa Clara it would make no sense at all, since they have their own utility where power costs just 10c kWh. There is something nice knowing your electricity costs are relatively fixed for 20 years though, since the price tends to follow the rate of inflation and the loan is fixed.
ctdonath 9y ago
Recall that Musk has been begging Congress to end the subsidies (broadly defined), which are distorting the market.
- rgbrenner 9y ago
  Odd that he didn't have an objection to it when Tesla was benefiting from it.. but once Tesla 3 sales crossed that 200k threshold, and set the end date on the subsidy for Tesla... then Musk comes out and says 'We MUST end this subsidy for everyone immediately'. Real principled stance there.
  - 20years 9y ago
    I suppose it's a quick way to kill of the competition.
  - Ryudas 9y ago
    Let me just state that Elon musk has , in fact mentioned going zero on subsidies before the 200k , namely, qhen bob lutz was critizizing the subsidies and loans tesla got, he offered a competition where everybod would go to zero subsidies.
    - rgbrenner 9y ago
      You mean the comments Lutz made in Oct 2016? There were 325k model 3 preorders in April 2016. Tesla has been in business since 2003. Show me a comment from 10 years ago of musk complaining about subsidies.
      - Ryudas 9y ago
        You know , you're right! I had my timelines mixed. I do still think that elon musk's companies get singled out quite strongly when they take advantage of the subsidies that a lot of these companies take part in, to much higher degree. I guess his companies bear so much vitriolitic commentary, it's hard to distinguish actual valid criticism from the other things.
eighthnate 9y ago
> It is risky basing too much of a business on tax credits and rebates. This is/was an open secret not only in the solar industry but the entire renewable/clean energy industry ( wind, geo, etc ). These solar companies existed solely because of government support and everyone knew that once the government support was pulled, these companies would immediately be bankrupt. The first solar companies to fall were those based in germany/uk/spain when european governments pulled the solar subsidies. Followed by the solar companies in the US. Even the chinese solar companies are struggling now. But the biggest problem going forward for the solar/wind/etc industry is low oil/gas prices. But even with the most optimistic projections, solar would be a relatively small portion of global energy source even by 2050.

jack6e 9y ago

I was thinking this myself. For all of Musk's braggadocio about not needing, and even being hurt by, subsidies, Tesla, whose profits only become more negative every quarter, has had its sales decimated in the countries that ended tax breaks for electric vehicles. With the specter of a major tax overhaul and massive spending cuts, a major recall, and still not enough strength to stand on its own, Musk has to be at least a little worried about Tesla's future and the futures of his other pet projects.

matt_wulfeck 9y ago

I’m surprised. At the rate PV has been falling these subsidies are probably negligible (federal rebate withstanding). I purchased PV because the cost with a 20-year loan comes out to be 13c kWh, meanwhile PG&E charges 29c kWh. And the loan interest is tax-deductible.

sgc 9y ago
What company did you use? I have received 3 quotes and none make much sense.
- matt_wulfeck 9y ago
  Solarcity. Highly recommended.
  - sgc 9y ago
    Weird. I had them come by for a quote and they were about 25% more than the second closest bid. I never did the full math. This was on a 5kW installation.
    - matt_wulfeck 9y ago
      My email is in my profile if you want my details. Our system is 6.8kwh. I didn’t go with solarcity because they were the cheapest.
20years 9y ago
If you purchase with a loan, you can get a much better deal and it can make sense. A lot of the solar companies were selling their low interest $0 down lease programs and they themselves were benefiting from the credits/rebates not the homeowner. Homeowners didn't really have to have a great credit score either. Once the credits and rebates went away, the lease programs weren't sustainable for the solar companies.
vonmoltke 9y ago
That rate is much higher than I paid in Texas or pay in New Jersey. In fact, I can buy wind power from Green Mountain for less than your solar install cost.
- matt_wulfeck 9y ago
  Totally agree, it makes sense in many parts of the country because of a combination of incumbent electricity costs as well as high number of sunny days. Just a few miles away in Santa Clara it would make no sense at all, since they have their own utility where power costs just 10c kWh. There is something nice knowing your electricity costs are relatively fixed for 20 years though, since the price tends to follow the rate of inflation and the loan is fixed.

ctdonath 9y ago

Recall that Musk has been begging Congress to end the subsidies (broadly defined), which are distorting the market.

rgbrenner 9y ago
Odd that he didn't have an objection to it when Tesla was benefiting from it.. but once Tesla 3 sales crossed that 200k threshold, and set the end date on the subsidy for Tesla... then Musk comes out and says 'We MUST end this subsidy for everyone immediately'. Real principled stance there.
- 20years 9y ago
  I suppose it's a quick way to kill of the competition.
- Ryudas 9y ago
  Let me just state that Elon musk has , in fact mentioned going zero on subsidies before the 200k , namely, qhen bob lutz was critizizing the subsidies and loans tesla got, he offered a competition where everybod would go to zero subsidies.
  - rgbrenner 9y ago
    You mean the comments Lutz made in Oct 2016? There were 325k model 3 preorders in April 2016. Tesla has been in business since 2003. Show me a comment from 10 years ago of musk complaining about subsidies.
    - Ryudas 9y ago
      You know , you're right! I had my timelines mixed. I do still think that elon musk's companies get singled out quite strongly when they take advantage of the subsidies that a lot of these companies take part in, to much higher degree. I guess his companies bear so much vitriolitic commentary, it's hard to distinguish actual valid criticism from the other things.

eighthnate 9y ago

> It is risky basing too much of a business on tax credits and rebates. This is/was an open secret not only in the solar industry but the entire renewable/clean energy industry ( wind, geo, etc ). These solar companies existed solely because of government support and everyone knew that once the government support was pulled, these companies would immediately be bankrupt. The first solar companies to fall were those based in germany/uk/spain when european governments pulled the solar subsidies. Followed by the solar companies in the US. Even the chinese solar companies are struggling now. But the biggest problem going forward for the solar/wind/etc industry is low oil/gas prices. But even with the most optimistic projections, solar would be a relatively small portion of global energy source even by 2050.