6 ms·

I can't even anymore. If this story is anywhere near true -- and I have no reason to believe it is not -- then what the hell do we as citizens DO about it? How

I can't even anymore. If this story is anywhere near true -- and I have no reason to believe it is not -- then what the hell do we as citizens DO about it? How can we put an end to ridiculous infringements on rights and wasteful use of resources? It certainly starts with voting for representatives that won't allow thus, but damn. There aren't a lot of good choices out there. And even if there are, how do we fix the issues that allow the bad actors to get elected over a "good" rep?

hood_syntax 9y ago
> what the hell do we do More like what can we do, which is essentially nothing besides begging elected officials to do something about it (spoiler: they won't). Alternative is court cases, but those take a lot of time and money, and rulings won't necessarily have the reach you want even if they're in your favor.
- clort 9y ago
  you are right, they won't do anything once they are elected.. Try making it clear to candidates that you would not support such behaviour in an elected official, and that if their interests are aligned with such causes you will not vote for them.
ballenf 9y ago
I'm as upset as you, but the abuses of federal law enforcement are nothing new. In fact they may have improved compared to the past, but it's impossible and pointless to compare too closely. The internet age changes the dynamics and visibility, so that is actually some comfort. In decades past, this exact same action to "protect their own" would have gone down without a blip on the national radar. It should be noted, however, the agency's power to use all the data they're wanting (phone IDs, in particular) to conduct ongoing intrusive surveillance at low cost is new and worrisome. It should also be noted that prosecutorial power works both ways: reading about the tactics used by Mueller against Trump, et al, is both encouraging and scary to me. It's nice when your friends are powerful, but scary when you realize their loyalty is fleeting.
rayiner 9y ago
The problem isn't the government, it's the "citizens." We're a society of cowards, who are afraid of everything and want the government to do something about it. E.g. crime rates are at historic lows, but more than half of Americans say that they worry a "great deal" about crime: http://news.gallup.com/poll/190475/americans-concern-crime-climbs-year-high.aspx http://news.gallup.com/poll/190475/americans-concern-crime-c.... It's not getting any better, it's probably getting worse. We're not that far away from people being arrested for the tweets they post: http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/17/us/twitter-journalist-strobe-epilepsy/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/17/us/twitter-journalist-strobe-e.... Millennials don't see anything wrong with that sort of thing: https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/07/why-its-a-bad-idea-to-tell-students-words-are-violence/533970 https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/07/why-it....
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- SilasX 9y ago
  >We're a society of cowards, who are afraid of everything and want the government to do something about it. E.g. crime rates are at historic lows, but more than half of Americans say that they worry a "great deal" about crime: That's not a contradiction. You can have a situation where people have to deploy numerous countermeasures[1] to head off crime, and where criminals pounce if any of these aren't active, but where the aggregate effect is to keep crime at bay. In that case, crime warrants being worried about, even if the rate is low. You might as well say it's irrational to "worry a great deal about crime" in Brazil "because you can just stay in your gated enclave, what's the problem?" [1] Locking your possessions, carrying little of value, traveling in groups, steering clear of strangers, living far out in suburbia where it's inconvenient for crime to reach, preventing buses (disproportionately used by the poor and criminal) from having stops near your home, etc.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    But is it true? Do people who don't deploy numerous countermeasures suffer significantly more crime?
Dirlewanger 9y ago
We're probably indefinitely fucked. The future is an abject morass straddled between 1984 and Brave New World. A violent uprising looks to be the only way. The problem is that it's against the mightiest military humanity has ever seen. Now watch me get subpoenaed for this...
JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> what the hell do we as citizens DO about it? Call your Congressperson [1], U.S. Senator [2] and state representatives. Tell them why you think this is ridiculous, in a calm and collected manner. Ask them, politely, for written follow-up. I do this about issues I care about. In my urban district of three-quarters of a million people, I'm almost always the only person calling about tech-related issues. Multiple times, the LA has asked me to email them supporting materials I reference. [1] https://www.house.gov/representatives/find/ https://www.house.gov/representatives/find/ Find your Congressperson [2] https://www.senate.gov/senators/contact/senators_cfm.cfm https://www.senate.gov/senators/contact/senators_cfm.cfm Find your U.S. Senator

hood_syntax 9y ago

> what the hell do we do More like what can we do, which is essentially nothing besides begging elected officials to do something about it (spoiler: they won't). Alternative is court cases, but those take a lot of time and money, and rulings won't necessarily have the reach you want even if they're in your favor.

clort 9y ago
you are right, they won't do anything once they are elected.. Try making it clear to candidates that you would not support such behaviour in an elected official, and that if their interests are aligned with such causes you will not vote for them.

ballenf 9y ago

I'm as upset as you, but the abuses of federal law enforcement are nothing new. In fact they may have improved compared to the past, but it's impossible and pointless to compare too closely. The internet age changes the dynamics and visibility, so that is actually some comfort. In decades past, this exact same action to "protect their own" would have gone down without a blip on the national radar. It should be noted, however, the agency's power to use all the data they're wanting (phone IDs, in particular) to conduct ongoing intrusive surveillance at low cost is new and worrisome. It should also be noted that prosecutorial power works both ways: reading about the tactics used by Mueller against Trump, et al, is both encouraging and scary to me. It's nice when your friends are powerful, but scary when you realize their loyalty is fleeting.

rayiner 9y ago

The problem isn't the government, it's the "citizens." We're a society of cowards, who are afraid of everything and want the government to do something about it. E.g. crime rates are at historic lows, but more than half of Americans say that they worry a "great deal" about crime: http://news.gallup.com/poll/190475/americans-concern-crime-climbs-year-high.aspx http://news.gallup.com/poll/190475/americans-concern-crime-c.... It's not getting any better, it's probably getting worse. We're not that far away from people being arrested for the tweets they post: http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/17/us/twitter-journalist-strobe-epilepsy/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/17/us/twitter-journalist-strobe-e.... Millennials don't see anything wrong with that sort of thing: https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/07/why-its-a-bad-idea-to-tell-students-words-are-violence/533970 https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/07/why-it....

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
SilasX 9y ago
>We're a society of cowards, who are afraid of everything and want the government to do something about it. E.g. crime rates are at historic lows, but more than half of Americans say that they worry a "great deal" about crime: That's not a contradiction. You can have a situation where people have to deploy numerous countermeasures[1] to head off crime, and where criminals pounce if any of these aren't active, but where the aggregate effect is to keep crime at bay. In that case, crime warrants being worried about, even if the rate is low. You might as well say it's irrational to "worry a great deal about crime" in Brazil "because you can just stay in your gated enclave, what's the problem?" [1] Locking your possessions, carrying little of value, traveling in groups, steering clear of strangers, living far out in suburbia where it's inconvenient for crime to reach, preventing buses (disproportionately used by the poor and criminal) from having stops near your home, etc.
- icebraining 9y ago
  But is it true? Do people who don't deploy numerous countermeasures suffer significantly more crime?

Dirlewanger 9y ago

We're probably indefinitely fucked. The future is an abject morass straddled between 1984 and Brave New World. A violent uprising looks to be the only way. The problem is that it's against the mightiest military humanity has ever seen. Now watch me get subpoenaed for this...

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

> what the hell do we as citizens DO about it? Call your Congressperson [1], U.S. Senator [2] and state representatives. Tell them why you think this is ridiculous, in a calm and collected manner. Ask them, politely, for written follow-up. I do this about issues I care about. In my urban district of three-quarters of a million people, I'm almost always the only person calling about tech-related issues. Multiple times, the LA has asked me to email them supporting materials I reference. [1] https://www.house.gov/representatives/find/ https://www.house.gov/representatives/find/ Find your Congressperson [2] https://www.senate.gov/senators/contact/senators_cfm.cfm https://www.senate.gov/senators/contact/senators_cfm.cfm Find your U.S. Senator