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There is a moral downside to porn. There's plenty that is uploaded without the person's consent (sometimes by a bitter ex). There's also a lot of stories out th

There is a moral downside to porn. There's plenty that is uploaded without the person's consent (sometimes by a bitter ex). There's also a lot of stories out there of people being coerced and made uncomfortable to continue filming when they didn't want to. I imagine this is the minority, but there's definitely issues within the porn industry.

timthelion 9y ago
You're right, there are downsides to porn as it is, but there is no reason it could not be a perfect industry. It is because of our barbaric taboos against women who appear in porn that revenge porn has power. It is because of our barbaric taboos that the porn industry is so shady. We should fight those taboos, and fight for the dignity of porn actresses. These flaws in the industry are all the more reason to pay the actresses directly through Patreon. Why should we get our pornography through shady websites on which there is no accountability as to the origin of the images?
vacri 9y ago
If being uncomfortable while working was to be made illegal, there'd be few minimum-wage jobs left. From burger-flipping to call centers, people do it because they have to, not because they want to. Coercion is a different kettle of fish, but being uncomfortable at your work is a pretty normal state of being.
- whamlastxmas 9y ago
  We're talking about morality, not laws.
  - vacri 9y ago
    So am I. You didn't seriously think I was suggesting we outlaw minimum wage jobs?
lmm 9y ago
Patreon, where consumers have a direct relationship with individual creators, would seem like the perfect way to avoid those issues though.
- klipt 9y ago
  What if Patreon wants to be family friendly, and allowing the selling of porn on Patreon ruins that image? Seems like a business opportunity for another website to take that niche, a "Porntreon" if you will.
  - darklajid 9y ago
    "Family friendly" and morality are not global concepts though. Things that might be ok in NL/DE might offend half of the US, things that the US doesn't care about might offend secular countries in the middle east. If you want to be a global platform, morales are tricky to get right. I believe it's best to let the consumer decide. Force people to mark their content as adult and hide adult content by default. Maybe with age verification to enable it, for countries that want that?
  - timthelion 9y ago
    Aren't NSFW filters good enough for family friendliness in America? There are, of course, things which are not suitable for children, frightening things, disturbing things, content related to immoral behavior. But if you ask an American, the destruction of life is far more suitable for children than it's creation. Patreon has no qualms hosting videos fantasizing mass murder and death [1] even when those videos are obviously aimed at children [2]. Is this really family friendliness or merely some strange flaw in our psychology without moral or philosophic basis? [1] https://www.patreon.com/posts/dreadnought-epic-13951713 https://www.patreon.com/posts/dreadnought-epic-13951713 [2] https://www.patreon.com/posts/103684 https://www.patreon.com/posts/103684
    - vacri 9y ago
      Yeah, patreon should shut [1] down, because otherwise kids might incorporate the lessons learned and just engage in space battles with their spaceships all willy-nilly.
jlg23 9y ago
> There's plenty that is uploaded without the person's consent (sometimes by a bitter ex)... That is not pornography but a crime.
- dwild 9y ago
  The issue is that it's extremely hard to discern between both.
  - timthelion 9y ago
    Not at all difficult, really. It is only difficult in the sense that it is difficult to tell the difference between a snake and an elephant if all you can do is feel its tail. If you actually know what is happening then the distinction is obvious.
    - lhnz 9y ago
      A pornographic photo does not necessarily imply a consent form. Somebody that watches videos or looks at photos does not "actually know what is happening". They are trusting this exercise to the distributor, and if the distributor is just a medium that does not concern themselves with checking for consent (e.g. most free sites), then you have just delegated to somebody this is not performing this work for you. In that case, you have no way of being able to gauge whether some pornography has had somebody else's consent or not. Consider also, the idea that not all pornographic actresses/actors are happy with having their content distributed to non-paying consumers, and I think it's highly likely that you and people you know have broken the law and not received consent for at least some of the content you've viewed.
      - timthelion 9y ago
        In the US, pornography websites are required to maintain documentation of age and consent [1]. I'm delegating that trust to the FBI. If the FBI isn't doing it's job, well that's a different problem. I will, however, grant that there are tremendous problems with the porn industry. That is absolutely besides the point. These problems are: A) not unique in any way to porn. Large quantities of clothing and tennis shoes are made by indentured child laborers. B) only go to further cement my opinion that the actual actresses should be paid for their work. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult_film_industry_regulations#2257_regulations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult_film_industry_regulation...

timthelion 9y ago

You're right, there are downsides to porn as it is, but there is no reason it could not be a perfect industry. It is because of our barbaric taboos against women who appear in porn that revenge porn has power. It is because of our barbaric taboos that the porn industry is so shady. We should fight those taboos, and fight for the dignity of porn actresses. These flaws in the industry are all the more reason to pay the actresses directly through Patreon. Why should we get our pornography through shady websites on which there is no accountability as to the origin of the images?

vacri 9y ago

If being uncomfortable while working was to be made illegal, there'd be few minimum-wage jobs left. From burger-flipping to call centers, people do it because they have to, not because they want to. Coercion is a different kettle of fish, but being uncomfortable at your work is a pretty normal state of being.

whamlastxmas 9y ago
We're talking about morality, not laws.
- vacri 9y ago
  So am I. You didn't seriously think I was suggesting we outlaw minimum wage jobs?

lmm 9y ago

Patreon, where consumers have a direct relationship with individual creators, would seem like the perfect way to avoid those issues though.

klipt 9y ago
What if Patreon wants to be family friendly, and allowing the selling of porn on Patreon ruins that image? Seems like a business opportunity for another website to take that niche, a "Porntreon" if you will.
- darklajid 9y ago
  "Family friendly" and morality are not global concepts though. Things that might be ok in NL/DE might offend half of the US, things that the US doesn't care about might offend secular countries in the middle east. If you want to be a global platform, morales are tricky to get right. I believe it's best to let the consumer decide. Force people to mark their content as adult and hide adult content by default. Maybe with age verification to enable it, for countries that want that?
- timthelion 9y ago
  Aren't NSFW filters good enough for family friendliness in America? There are, of course, things which are not suitable for children, frightening things, disturbing things, content related to immoral behavior. But if you ask an American, the destruction of life is far more suitable for children than it's creation. Patreon has no qualms hosting videos fantasizing mass murder and death [1] even when those videos are obviously aimed at children [2]. Is this really family friendliness or merely some strange flaw in our psychology without moral or philosophic basis? [1] https://www.patreon.com/posts/dreadnought-epic-13951713 https://www.patreon.com/posts/dreadnought-epic-13951713 [2] https://www.patreon.com/posts/103684 https://www.patreon.com/posts/103684
  - vacri 9y ago
    Yeah, patreon should shut [1] down, because otherwise kids might incorporate the lessons learned and just engage in space battles with their spaceships all willy-nilly.

jlg23 9y ago

> There's plenty that is uploaded without the person's consent (sometimes by a bitter ex)... That is not pornography but a crime.

dwild 9y ago
The issue is that it's extremely hard to discern between both.
- timthelion 9y ago
  Not at all difficult, really. It is only difficult in the sense that it is difficult to tell the difference between a snake and an elephant if all you can do is feel its tail. If you actually know what is happening then the distinction is obvious.
  - lhnz 9y ago
    A pornographic photo does not necessarily imply a consent form. Somebody that watches videos or looks at photos does not "actually know what is happening". They are trusting this exercise to the distributor, and if the distributor is just a medium that does not concern themselves with checking for consent (e.g. most free sites), then you have just delegated to somebody this is not performing this work for you. In that case, you have no way of being able to gauge whether some pornography has had somebody else's consent or not. Consider also, the idea that not all pornographic actresses/actors are happy with having their content distributed to non-paying consumers, and I think it's highly likely that you and people you know have broken the law and not received consent for at least some of the content you've viewed.
    - timthelion 9y ago
      In the US, pornography websites are required to maintain documentation of age and consent [1]. I'm delegating that trust to the FBI. If the FBI isn't doing it's job, well that's a different problem. I will, however, grant that there are tremendous problems with the porn industry. That is absolutely besides the point. These problems are: A) not unique in any way to porn. Large quantities of clothing and tennis shoes are made by indentured child laborers. B) only go to further cement my opinion that the actual actresses should be paid for their work. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult_film_industry_regulations#2257_regulations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult_film_industry_regulation...