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This has nothing to do with showing a nipple. This was more about the porn and private sex shows. There are all kinds of legitimate reasons why one might not wa

This has nothing to do with showing a nipple. This was more about the porn and private sex shows. There are all kinds of legitimate reasons why one might not want to enter that business. That's their right as a business owner.

kuschku 9y ago
Not when it becomes impossible to exist as a business without relying on such intermediaries, e.g. VISA or MasterCard. Then they are a monopoly, and can't choose their customers anymore.
- kbart 9y ago
  Monopoly in what? There are plenty of sites that specialize in sex cams, private shows and amateur porn, so why not just go there? There are legitimate reasons to avoid adult content in your private site as it is very easy to get into serious problems where as site owner/administrator your are legally responsible: underage actors, abuse, prostitution claims (where it is illegal) etc. just to name few.
  - kuschku 9y ago
    I meant payment processors. MasterCard, VISA and PayPal all will refuse to do business with you, or pressure you into changing your business, if you're found to be in the pornography or prostitution business. Even if that's legal in your country. And in Sweden, banks are now collecting fees for getting cash, or paying in cash, of about 10$ each. So you can't really do anything as customer or company without MasterCard or VISA anymore. At this point, these systems should be split up, or replaced by an international payment standard with nationalised implementors.
    - kbart 9y ago
      So how do legitimate porn sites collect money? It's a multi-billion industry, I'm sure they've solved this problem somehow.
      - kuschku 9y ago
        According to Wikipedia, many of them accept bitcoins, wire transfers, etc. Obviously, that is a significant hurdle that isn't required for other businesses. A similar issue existed a few years back with a major German retailer, which sold cuban cigars — and MasterCard, VISA and PayPal closed their accounts over it, but luckily in Germany wire transfers, direct debit and Europay cards are common enough that they had an alternative.
        icebraining 9y ago
        This is a case where a little first-hand investigation might prove more fruitful :) For example, Ersties.com, a site made by a German woman and owned by a Swiss company, accepts Paypal and Credit Cards. Abbywinters, which I believe is currently Dutch, also accepts credit cards, as does GirlsOutWest. Granted, this is not a big sample, just three whose content I happen to like, but it shows that it's hardly an impossibility.
    - Torgo 9y ago
      Porn is a multi-billion dollar industry. Maybe the big players should start a payment processor.
      - kuschku 9y ago
        The German economy is a multi-trillion dollar economy. And yet, one payment processor (Europay) was simply bought by MasterCard, and the other (Girocard) can't compete anymore, because they can't influence what standards are used by Android Pay, Apple Pay, and NFC terminals (Hint: it's not the EMV standards themselves, but only specifically the large credit card networks)
    - lawnchair_larry 9y ago
      Nope, you just made that up. Go to any of the well known sites and they all seem to have credit card signup pages Also, I don't see what that has to do with Patreon.
- arkades 9y ago
  You can’t exist as a business without patreon? Selling porn? Someone should inform ... the vast majority of porn businesses. The rest of them don’t use Patreon for payment processing.
  - kuschku 9y ago
    Without payment processors. The argument was whether VISA, MasterCard, etc, which wield a massive influence, and have quite restrictive rules, are anticompetitive and monopolistic.
    - arkades 9y ago
      Porn-specific payments processors include eMerchant Pay, SMA, Alternative Merchant Processing, EZ Payment Solutions, ccNetPay, and Creative Merchant Options. If you have a dozen processors to choose from, including a half dozen dedicated to your specific niche, you are not being boxed out by a monopoly. You’re, at that point, just claiming that you are owed a profitable business model. That is not a valid complaint.
      - kuschku 9y ago
        I’m not specifically talking about porn. I’m talking about the issue that major processors such as VISA and MasterCard hold too much power in general, and either should be broken up, or shouldn’t have the power to choose their customers. For example, a few years back a major German retailer sold cuban cigars — and MasterCard, VISA and PayPal closed their accounts over it. Luckily in Germany wire transfers, direct debit and Europay cards are common enough that they had an alternative, but it still became a major issue, and the Rossmann chain refused to do what the processors wanted, because they argued that these companies had no right to enforce US laws in Germany (and Rossmann prevailed, in the end PayPal and co had to allow Rossmann to sell such products via their payment systems).
  - lmm 9y ago
    Small independent producers may not be able to operate without Patreon. I mean, the whole point of Patreon is that it enables a huge group of creators who otherwise couldn't exist as a business.

kuschku 9y ago

Not when it becomes impossible to exist as a business without relying on such intermediaries, e.g. VISA or MasterCard. Then they are a monopoly, and can't choose their customers anymore.

kbart 9y ago
Monopoly in what? There are plenty of sites that specialize in sex cams, private shows and amateur porn, so why not just go there? There are legitimate reasons to avoid adult content in your private site as it is very easy to get into serious problems where as site owner/administrator your are legally responsible: underage actors, abuse, prostitution claims (where it is illegal) etc. just to name few.
- kuschku 9y ago
  I meant payment processors. MasterCard, VISA and PayPal all will refuse to do business with you, or pressure you into changing your business, if you're found to be in the pornography or prostitution business. Even if that's legal in your country. And in Sweden, banks are now collecting fees for getting cash, or paying in cash, of about 10$ each. So you can't really do anything as customer or company without MasterCard or VISA anymore. At this point, these systems should be split up, or replaced by an international payment standard with nationalised implementors.
  - kbart 9y ago
    So how do legitimate porn sites collect money? It's a multi-billion industry, I'm sure they've solved this problem somehow.
    - kuschku 9y ago
      According to Wikipedia, many of them accept bitcoins, wire transfers, etc. Obviously, that is a significant hurdle that isn't required for other businesses. A similar issue existed a few years back with a major German retailer, which sold cuban cigars — and MasterCard, VISA and PayPal closed their accounts over it, but luckily in Germany wire transfers, direct debit and Europay cards are common enough that they had an alternative.
      - icebraining 9y ago
        This is a case where a little first-hand investigation might prove more fruitful :) For example, Ersties.com, a site made by a German woman and owned by a Swiss company, accepts Paypal and Credit Cards. Abbywinters, which I believe is currently Dutch, also accepts credit cards, as does GirlsOutWest. Granted, this is not a big sample, just three whose content I happen to like, but it shows that it's hardly an impossibility.
  - Torgo 9y ago
    Porn is a multi-billion dollar industry. Maybe the big players should start a payment processor.
    - kuschku 9y ago
      The German economy is a multi-trillion dollar economy. And yet, one payment processor (Europay) was simply bought by MasterCard, and the other (Girocard) can't compete anymore, because they can't influence what standards are used by Android Pay, Apple Pay, and NFC terminals (Hint: it's not the EMV standards themselves, but only specifically the large credit card networks)
  - lawnchair_larry 9y ago
    Nope, you just made that up. Go to any of the well known sites and they all seem to have credit card signup pages Also, I don't see what that has to do with Patreon.
arkades 9y ago
You can’t exist as a business without patreon? Selling porn? Someone should inform ... the vast majority of porn businesses. The rest of them don’t use Patreon for payment processing.
- kuschku 9y ago
  Without payment processors. The argument was whether VISA, MasterCard, etc, which wield a massive influence, and have quite restrictive rules, are anticompetitive and monopolistic.
  - arkades 9y ago
    Porn-specific payments processors include eMerchant Pay, SMA, Alternative Merchant Processing, EZ Payment Solutions, ccNetPay, and Creative Merchant Options. If you have a dozen processors to choose from, including a half dozen dedicated to your specific niche, you are not being boxed out by a monopoly. You’re, at that point, just claiming that you are owed a profitable business model. That is not a valid complaint.
    - kuschku 9y ago
      I’m not specifically talking about porn. I’m talking about the issue that major processors such as VISA and MasterCard hold too much power in general, and either should be broken up, or shouldn’t have the power to choose their customers. For example, a few years back a major German retailer sold cuban cigars — and MasterCard, VISA and PayPal closed their accounts over it. Luckily in Germany wire transfers, direct debit and Europay cards are common enough that they had an alternative, but it still became a major issue, and the Rossmann chain refused to do what the processors wanted, because they argued that these companies had no right to enforce US laws in Germany (and Rossmann prevailed, in the end PayPal and co had to allow Rossmann to sell such products via their payment systems).
- lmm 9y ago
  Small independent producers may not be able to operate without Patreon. I mean, the whole point of Patreon is that it enables a huge group of creators who otherwise couldn't exist as a business.