5 ms·

I’d have liked this article if it had taken a more critical stance as to the resurgence of RPGs rather than hand-waving some ineffable bs about simpler times an

I’d have liked this article if it had taken a more critical stance as to the resurgence of RPGs rather than hand-waving some ineffable bs about simpler times and half-allusions to political tensions. The more accurate answer is, IMO, two fold: (1) kids who grew up on RPGs are now old enough to want to want to play with their own kids, and funnel disposable cash into it (2) kids who are interested have less stigma to approaching it, so conversion rates from interest to player should be higher (3) a lot of technical advancements from the US indie scene and the Western European LARP scene have slowly diffused out into the more mainstream RPG community, resulting in play that’s a lot more fulfilling to various types of players

acbabis 9y ago
Another very important reason was left out: The 5th edition of the game was very well designed and received critical acclaim among veterans who were disappointed by the 4th edition. The article makes it sound like there's been a resurrection when in fact the game was just hibernating.
- lotharbot 9y ago
  of particular note, D&D 5e accomplished many of the technical/balance things 4e was supposed to accomplish but failed at, while still retaining the excellent flavor and sense of power from 3.5e.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    5e did what I would have thought impossible: the people that preferred 4e to earlier editions largely liked it, the people who were repulsed by 4e but stayed with 3e/3.5e or forks of those liked it, and a lot of the “old school” crowd that preferred OD&D, B/X or BECMI D&D, or AD&D 1e or 2e also liked it.
    - forapurpose 9y ago
      Why would someone who already knows AD&D 1e switch to the new one? What does that person gain? Imagine this hypothetical person wants to spend as little time as possible learning and on details, and as much as possible on creative experiences.
      - dmoy 9y ago
        Not having to use THAC0 ever again would be one thing they would gain. I'd make a silly wager that the net time saved by using 5e rules would outweigh the cost of learning them.
        klodolph 9y ago
        THAC0 didn't come around until 2e, 1e had hit tables. You can see them on p. 74 of the AD&D DMG, with some more notes on p. 82.
        dragonwriter 9y ago
        That's true; it's easy to forget that THAC0 was a simplification from 1e. Though that kind of reinforces the point.
        Steko 9y ago
        Actually it was introduced before 2e but wasn't a core system in 1e.
        dmoy 9y ago
        Yea the salient point there was the second part - whether it be hit tables or THAC0, 5e rules would expedite play. Course some of us will sit there and say y'all should just be playing 3d6 instead, but I digress...
        racer-v 9y ago
        You can get rid of THAC0 if you just use this simple rule: roll d20, add the opponent's armor class (plus your own to-hit bonus if any), and a result of 20 or better is a hit.
    - klipt 9y ago
      Pathfinder still has a dedicated following though - maybe that's the one niche (tons of detailed customizations and third party add ons) 5e didn't fill?
      - dragonwriter 9y ago
        Sure. I'm not saying 5e killed every other D&D and clone system, just that it seems to have come done a good job at appealing broadly to what had become a very balkanized fanbase with separate communities that were hostile to each other's preferred systems.
- Steko 9y ago
  That also struck me as odd. While the article says that "interest fell like an orc beneath a bastard sword", D&D seems to have been more popular in 3e than it is now (although it's certainly rebounding and more visible in pop culture than it was in the past): https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=%2Fm%2F026q9,%2Fm%2F04dzk1_ https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=%2Fm%2F0... (not sure why it's showing results for pathfinder before 2008)
- gerdesj 9y ago
  What on earth are these edition things? I'll have to dig out my DMG, PH, MM, FF etc. Apparently, they might be cool. Then there is Traveller, Runequest, Tunnels and Trolls, Car Wars (with Truck Stop etc) and rather a lot more.
  - curiousGambler 9y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Drago...
  - squeaky-clean 9y ago
    Every 8 or so years they revamp the rules and release it as a new edition. Aside from few exceptions, they're mostly incompatible with each other and offer different rules for combat, skill usage and training, etc, and quality-of-life improvements. 3e (more specifically 3.5e) was extremely popular. There's now a ruleset called Pathfinder made by another company, Paizo, that continues the style of 3.5e and is mostly compatible with it (though it has its own core rulebooks and most people I know don't mix 3e and PF). 4e wasn't as well liked but it still had mostly good reception. It was very polarizing to many players. This obviously isn't the space for a debate about it but I think the biggest cause of complaints are the way the combat system was overhauled. Many people compare it more to a modern RPG video game rather than a pen and paper one. 5e has had a great reception from old and new players. It's rules are definitely closer to 3rd edition than it is to 4th. Though it brought in a lot of quality of life improvements from 4. For example while it makes sense that 'Hide' and 'Move Silently' are two separate skills, it just means a rogue has to split their skill points between two things. There's not many scenarios outside of comedy where you give a character 'Hide' but not 'Move Silently' or vice versa. 5e has merged both of these into a single Stealth skill. All the editions are still considered Dungeons and Dragons though, and not separate games (of which there are many wonderful ones, some of which have their own 1e, 2e, 3e, an so on...)
    - gerdesj 9y ago
      Thanks for the run down. My comment was somewhat tongue in cheek. To be honest as a DM/GM I generally threw out the rules as soon as they got in the way of a good narrative. I'm quite tempted to give it a dabble again ...
- mhink 9y ago
  There was also a very interesting podcast [1] the other day with Mike Mearls, Adam Koebel, Matt Mercer, and Matt Colville discussing the design decisions in 5th edition. Specifically, one of the most interesting points Mearls made is that the 5e design team specifically set out to craft a game which "felt like" Dungeons and Dragons, and which explicitly recognized and created a place for the "culture" of D&D which has been around for years (certainly since I was futzing around with 3.5 statblocks in high school!) An example they brought up is the alignment system: it's one of the most criticized aspects of the game, especially with regards to mechanics. Nevertheless, it's baked into the culture of D&D by now ("What would Batman's alignment be?") and while getting rid of it might improve the gameplay, it would be removing something core to the game experience. 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqjLO6YNKV0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqjLO6YNKV0
- samstave 9y ago
  Roll for pop-culture-perceptiveness The tighter your grip on the threat of D&D, the more mid-40s nerds slip through your fingers!
rndmize 9y ago
I would also throw in that board games have blown up in the last decade or so, especially with the advent of Kickstarter. There's a lot of crossover between between the communities (as the article illustrates) and, I think, a bit of a push-back against the lack of choice/flexibility + social disconnect in most electronic games.

acbabis 9y ago

Another very important reason was left out: The 5th edition of the game was very well designed and received critical acclaim among veterans who were disappointed by the 4th edition. The article makes it sound like there's been a resurrection when in fact the game was just hibernating.

lotharbot 9y ago
of particular note, D&D 5e accomplished many of the technical/balance things 4e was supposed to accomplish but failed at, while still retaining the excellent flavor and sense of power from 3.5e.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  5e did what I would have thought impossible: the people that preferred 4e to earlier editions largely liked it, the people who were repulsed by 4e but stayed with 3e/3.5e or forks of those liked it, and a lot of the “old school” crowd that preferred OD&D, B/X or BECMI D&D, or AD&D 1e or 2e also liked it.
  - forapurpose 9y ago
    Why would someone who already knows AD&D 1e switch to the new one? What does that person gain? Imagine this hypothetical person wants to spend as little time as possible learning and on details, and as much as possible on creative experiences.
    - dmoy 9y ago
      Not having to use THAC0 ever again would be one thing they would gain. I'd make a silly wager that the net time saved by using 5e rules would outweigh the cost of learning them.
      - klodolph 9y ago
        THAC0 didn't come around until 2e, 1e had hit tables. You can see them on p. 74 of the AD&D DMG, with some more notes on p. 82.
        dragonwriter 9y ago
        That's true; it's easy to forget that THAC0 was a simplification from 1e. Though that kind of reinforces the point.
        Steko 9y ago
        Actually it was introduced before 2e but wasn't a core system in 1e.
        dmoy 9y ago
        Yea the salient point there was the second part - whether it be hit tables or THAC0, 5e rules would expedite play. Course some of us will sit there and say y'all should just be playing 3d6 instead, but I digress...
        racer-v 9y ago
        You can get rid of THAC0 if you just use this simple rule: roll d20, add the opponent's armor class (plus your own to-hit bonus if any), and a result of 20 or better is a hit.
  - klipt 9y ago
    Pathfinder still has a dedicated following though - maybe that's the one niche (tons of detailed customizations and third party add ons) 5e didn't fill?
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      Sure. I'm not saying 5e killed every other D&D and clone system, just that it seems to have come done a good job at appealing broadly to what had become a very balkanized fanbase with separate communities that were hostile to each other's preferred systems.
Steko 9y ago
That also struck me as odd. While the article says that "interest fell like an orc beneath a bastard sword", D&D seems to have been more popular in 3e than it is now (although it's certainly rebounding and more visible in pop culture than it was in the past): https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=%2Fm%2F026q9,%2Fm%2F04dzk1_ https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=%2Fm%2F0... (not sure why it's showing results for pathfinder before 2008)
gerdesj 9y ago
What on earth are these edition things? I'll have to dig out my DMG, PH, MM, FF etc. Apparently, they might be cool. Then there is Traveller, Runequest, Tunnels and Trolls, Car Wars (with Truck Stop etc) and rather a lot more.
- curiousGambler 9y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Drago...
- squeaky-clean 9y ago
  Every 8 or so years they revamp the rules and release it as a new edition. Aside from few exceptions, they're mostly incompatible with each other and offer different rules for combat, skill usage and training, etc, and quality-of-life improvements. 3e (more specifically 3.5e) was extremely popular. There's now a ruleset called Pathfinder made by another company, Paizo, that continues the style of 3.5e and is mostly compatible with it (though it has its own core rulebooks and most people I know don't mix 3e and PF). 4e wasn't as well liked but it still had mostly good reception. It was very polarizing to many players. This obviously isn't the space for a debate about it but I think the biggest cause of complaints are the way the combat system was overhauled. Many people compare it more to a modern RPG video game rather than a pen and paper one. 5e has had a great reception from old and new players. It's rules are definitely closer to 3rd edition than it is to 4th. Though it brought in a lot of quality of life improvements from 4. For example while it makes sense that 'Hide' and 'Move Silently' are two separate skills, it just means a rogue has to split their skill points between two things. There's not many scenarios outside of comedy where you give a character 'Hide' but not 'Move Silently' or vice versa. 5e has merged both of these into a single Stealth skill. All the editions are still considered Dungeons and Dragons though, and not separate games (of which there are many wonderful ones, some of which have their own 1e, 2e, 3e, an so on...)
  - gerdesj 9y ago
    Thanks for the run down. My comment was somewhat tongue in cheek. To be honest as a DM/GM I generally threw out the rules as soon as they got in the way of a good narrative. I'm quite tempted to give it a dabble again ...
mhink 9y ago
There was also a very interesting podcast [1] the other day with Mike Mearls, Adam Koebel, Matt Mercer, and Matt Colville discussing the design decisions in 5th edition. Specifically, one of the most interesting points Mearls made is that the 5e design team specifically set out to craft a game which "felt like" Dungeons and Dragons, and which explicitly recognized and created a place for the "culture" of D&D which has been around for years (certainly since I was futzing around with 3.5 statblocks in high school!) An example they brought up is the alignment system: it's one of the most criticized aspects of the game, especially with regards to mechanics. Nevertheless, it's baked into the culture of D&D by now ("What would Batman's alignment be?") and while getting rid of it might improve the gameplay, it would be removing something core to the game experience. 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqjLO6YNKV0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqjLO6YNKV0
samstave 9y ago
Roll for pop-culture-perceptiveness The tighter your grip on the threat of D&D, the more mid-40s nerds slip through your fingers!

rndmize 9y ago

I would also throw in that board games have blown up in the last decade or so, especially with the advent of Kickstarter. There's a lot of crossover between between the communities (as the article illustrates) and, I think, a bit of a push-back against the lack of choice/flexibility + social disconnect in most electronic games.